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JSA's Close Combat Competition

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by wuji, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Opinions welcome,

    Soooo, I know JSA has mim-6 where Ariadna does not, I know JSA has the marker state where Steel Phalanx does not, but, I can't be the only one who is looking at CB and looking at Musashi and Kitsune and wondering why these two arent comparable to the best CC combatants of those factions. And I've seen the complaints before in N3, it really seems like this is due to the Natural Born Warrior skill. Truly though, my biggest complaint is Ajax... I've never seen a deck more stacked than that one model. Durable, hard to shoot, high dodge, high burst, high CC, NBW, nanopulser still, STEALTH, good BS, FD and linking to grant SS. and wait for it, still cheap as chips. If I look at Achilles, Achilles is tolerable due to expense, investing in the defeat of Achilles hurts your opponent whole army, Ajax is just incredibly optimized. He has no weaknesses. I had already been wondering why CB would give only the two JSA characters CC25 with MA5 if they can always be brought down a peg, or two by anyone with NBW or +1 B in CC. I get that Kitsune is highly deliverable so she can potentially just scalp and army and skip the potatoes or in this case the meat. But if she engages Ajax in her active turn, it's still not even an even match. It's a garauntee she'll die if it's his active turn where he will almost only ever roll one save. As for Musashi, I've been wanting to say for q couple of weeks now, he needs to be more deliverable but jesus, the dueling master would just get fucked up here. I'd like to see Musashi get +1B on Flash Pulse and +1 B in CC or a higher target number like CC 27 to match the retardedness that Ajax is in CC once Ajax strips Musashi of his MA like a bitch and then applies his own and that's still Ajax in the reactive turn. So yeah, if CB can at the very least, keep Musashi as best CC combatant and make him just that much more deliverable with +1B on that Flash Pulse. JSA would be much obliged instead making it obvious that that one character could tank an entire JSA list. Remeber, JSA's marker status is relegated to objectives and delivering CC combatants to the enemy, but Steel Phalanx didnt get the memo, JSA being a very obviously CC oriented faction with obvious limitations on gun fighting, I believe there needs to be some sort of give and take here.

    Opinions on dealing with Ajax welcome, but as far as I can tell, he has no hard counters and his soft counters are dubious.
     
  2. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
    Warcor

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    How about a Surprise Carbonite from a Ninja to then butcher the poor sod while he tries to Reset?
    Apply Berserk E/M CCW Domaru to face, should work handsomely as well.
     
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  3. elTzimmy

    elTzimmy Active Member

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    17 point Tanko with monofilament CC weapon would like to know your location.
     
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  4. Sicaris

    Sicaris Active Member

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    It doesn't seem like the tanko is going to do much except die here unless in combination with the previously mentioned carbonite. At which point e/m is probably the way to go. Hacking is clearly a good general way to take Ajax down but it seems sad that a faction like JSA, not known for their hacking has to take this route. Especially when you consider the ninja costs almost as much as Ajax anyway. The other issue here is order expenditure, while carbonite might be the best choice to put him out of action for good, oblivion has a better chance of success (B2, AP, Dam 16) and effectively hamstrings him.

    Either way Ajax is certainly a very optimised profile. One of the issues here is that NBW used to preclude using MA. Now it just makes MA users amazing at fighting untrained infantry where they would probably have won anyway.
     
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  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You shouldn't stab the stabby guys, you should shoot the stabby guys. Ajax is not going to be winning many gunfights with his Combi Rifle, and he can't take partial cover (relying only on Mimetism). Shooting Ajax is essentially the same as shooting any other ARM2 guy with a combi in cover.
     
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  6. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    It's your mistake for trying to out-karate a gorilla. You don't need any subtle tricks, just charge with a Domaru E/M CC weapon: almost half the cost of the big guy and in one hit he's almost guaranteed to be toast: isolated, immobilized and with a crit he could even kiss the floor in one attack. Same trick works for Achilles too, but in this case poor Brad Pitt costs like 3 Domarus and dies all the same. Your own guy will die in the process, sure, but what do you care? He died with honrar.

    Yeah, yeah, sometimes JSA is a force as subtle and elegant as a perfect cherry blossom and yadda yadda yadda... but other times you just have to throw a screaming madman at the enemy with a big ass microwave knife.

    Because bushido is one hell of a drug.
     
  7. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    You know what I think it is, JSA feels like it's not the best at CC or tied for it. It does have the highest CC troop with ease of delivery but her hard counter is simply a template weapon. The presence of NBW effectively reduces Kitsune to a regular Oniwaban, in which case they have a better ccw than her...

    Musashi on the other hand, everything about this guy just says I should be the best character in CC, right? Limited range, non lethality at range being mostly a defense tool. Duelist in Aristeia not durable. He seems like he should have had something to put him on par with NBW users. Even having NBW himself would clear that up so he'd still be 5% better than Ajax. Hell give him NBW and CC26 would make it all better, to where Ajax would have to engage Musashi in his active turn to put him down but wouldn't want to engage him in the reactive without a risk. That's just how I feel.

    Make Musashi Great Again :laughing::laughing:
     
  8. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    Give mushashi:
    Eclipse/smoke,
    NBW,
    CC 28,
    +1 burst in CC, (shouldn't all these guys with dual wielding two sword have +1 burst in CC? )
    A special rule just for him called kensei: He always has atleast +15 cc over any opponent?
    Just some weird ideas. Some might be good some crazy.
     
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  9. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Musashi was designed for an Arena Sport. Ajax was a prototype for Aleph’s Magnum Opus.

    Musashi is still better against most targets, as his MA5 and AP+EXP will outdamage Ajax significantly, and he’s still one of only 2 models in the entire game that are B2 in CC in ARO (the other of which is ALSO in JSA).

    Musashi is fine.
     
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  10. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I'm surprised you didnt throw in the usual "give him the frenzy discount" or something like that.

    Seriously though, you ain't helpful, but it's okay, I'll do as I've done before, no thanks needed, I gotchu mi amigo...
     
  11. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Win a tournament using him and I'll believe it. Because Infinity is a shooting game, CC troops need to be deliverable somehow. If his Haris team cant force an opponent to take cover then he isnt being delivered. If you're using Yojimbo or Kitsune to lay smoke to deliver him, you actually dont need him on the table cause someone else mostly just as capable is already in position, if you're using a Kempeitai Spitfire, maybe 5 dice but not against the best AROs, like a Ryuken. So that's why Musashi could use a bump of sorts.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You can just spend one more short skill to just walk into the back arc of anything with a template. They can't make a BS Attack if they can't draw LoF to you before you enter Silhouette Contact.

    Musashi already has +1B and CC28 from MA5.

    Then don't CC the guys with NBW? This isn't a new thing in N4 -- NBW has been around since N3. This comment makes it sound like your opponent is fielding more than 1-2 models with NBW in a list, if any at all...

    He already has plenty of tools to deliver himself -- he picked up Shock Immune, he's got a WIP15 Flash Pulse, and he's got 6-4 Movement.

    The problem is you are comparing him to troops that cost twice as much or three times as much as he does.

    Musashi is a gamble. Almost anything you can put him in CC with will die, but to even out how assymetric those trades will be, Musashi can't have every tool under the sun to deliver himself.

    If you want to complain about a CC piece being too good btw, you should be looking at Valkyrie, not Ajax. And you could take away her NBW, and she would still be too good.
     
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  13. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Sorry; yea, to clarify, I think Musashi’s CC effectiveness is fine. His ability to make use of them leaves something to be desired.

    Though honestly if he had Wildcard and could hitch a ride on a Domaru Core or Karakuri Haris that might be all he’d need to shine.
     
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  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    For your Kitsune walking into the back arc example. You are saying the most positive example. You could say I'm using less than the most favorable conditions in my example. But there's thing in the military: Dont be a hero, fall back to your lowest level of training. What that analogy means here is we should never make examples of the most favorable condition but always test our thoughts on the worst conditions.

    Addressing what you said to Fed4Ykin, he was being sarcastic, maybe sardonic.

    Don't CC NBW troops. Why didn't I think of that... oooorrr, I'm also not the first to say JSA is the most CC oriented faction. That's it's theme at a cost. We're inclined to use it...

    I dont think you're being honest with yourself about B1 FP on a WIP 15 platform about opening up an approach vector... with low burst weapons you wanna model your opponent below BS10 and your self 6 points higher. B is still King in this game until your stat breaks past 20. And again, JSA is the CC faction. Its focus is delivering and killing with Katanas then some deployable board control.

    Again, he actually doesnt have any tool to deliver himself to the enemy. He himself does not have smoke, a high burst or high mod difference in a shootout etc. He will rely on the Kempetai and someone else's smoke.

    Yes Ajax and Valkyrie are a problem for him. They also dont have a problem moving forward, they arent concerned as much about being shot at in their reactive and can create their own openings up to 16"...

    It is definitely not lost on me you get what you pay for but there is an optimization factor as well. Think about that.
     
    #14 wuji, Nov 22, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
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  15. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Now you just have to make sure he doesnt encroach on Domaru and make him usable as a solo piece as well. I like the idea of his exclusive Haris but it's weird and similar enough to the Domaru Tanko Haris.

    I kind of like the idea that each unit in JSA has a different technique to close the gap to CC. The Core and Haris Domaru teams can utilize a B4 HI unit. The Skirmishers have the marker state. The bikes have smoke. The TAG is a TAG... The Shikami are mobile though I wish they could also dodge on a 16. And I would like if Musashi could win the battle of the mind before the actual fight, utilizing that WIP 15. Giving him B2 Flash Pulse, is just good enough for the points invested when running the dice caclulator.
     
  16. SpectralOwl

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    It makes gameplay sense to shoot the stabbers, but it sure is a feels-bad to bring Shinobu and only ever get to use her for a Combi Rifle and Smoke Grenades because the other guy got all the optimisation for the matchup. At least she's a Ninja, they're practical, Musashi is so visibly bad in actual play I never even tried him. Would be nice to see him get Immunity(Natural Born Warrior), even if it wouldn't really help his approach, just for the feels.
     
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  17. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're not wrong. Ninja's are more appropriate for assassination and espionage missions.

    As for comparable troops to Musashi, he is basically just a Warband on Steroids, Highlanders and their like are 1/4-1/8 the cost of Musashi and Ajax but when berserking are just as likely to score a wound and have smoke which Musashi does not. Ajax is in fact a HI blockade and trouble shooter and not a warband but is accompanied by the best warband in the game.

    I think what I'll do is I'll look at every army and assess if their is at least one unit that wont be fielded competitively. Look at what the sectorial itself does to make sure I'm not stepping on toes and then make suggestions to a single unit from that sectorial if any can and should be made.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    What is your worry about spending one more order to walk past someone? Yes, the reality of N4 is that more troops have DTW than ever before. That is a thing we will need to deal with. But Shinobu should have no problem picking these engagements either by waiting for extension into the midfield, where she can punish over-extension very easily, or by relying on Smoke from angles.

    And she has a Combi Rifle. People seem to forget that Shinobu is a fine shot since she's -12ing/-9ing most things she would want to shoot at on the first volley (Surprise Attack, Mimetism -6, and Cover) and has a very easy time finding flanking shots to let her shoot at 11s or 14s. Our Ninjas aren't impersonators -- they have mods they can leverage to win gunfights.

    Yes, JSA has a lot of CC skills. But even with them, I have actually used CC in maybe half of my games as JSA. The greatest strength of CC is in the threat -- leaving even the beefiest piece uncovered against JSA results in it being taken from you very easily.

    Musashi has an additional wound on his N3 profile, and 6-4 MOV. You should try running some numbers with the Flash Pulse -- while I won't argue for the use of it offensively, it's much better than you might be inclined to think, simply by being WIP15. Yes, Musashi will generally rely on other pieces to deliver him into CC, but that's true of all of our CC-capable HI as well. Musashi also comes at a bargain bin price compared to the pieces with their own delivery mechanism (excepting Yojimbo, but Yojimbo is a god-tier trooper).

    I wasn't pointing to Ajax or Valkyrie as models that pose a threat to Musashi, just that if we're going to get mad comparing ourselves to one or the other like the original post does, it should be Valkyrie.
     
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  19. elTzimmy

    elTzimmy Active Member

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    While I was joking, I didn't think it would be taken at face value. My bad here.

    My point (or what I wanted it to be) is similar to Sigeric's and Ashtaroth's – Ajax is a value miniature, meaning it ties a lot of points in a single profile with a bunch of stats. JSA's army's value is far more spread out and stable, instead of having one or two "heroes", so even if you end up trading two orders for one, you still come out ahead in total orders and points.

    Against Aleph, I'd worry far, far more about their access to WIP 15 hackers and throwable pitchers – losing minis to Ajax doesn't lose you the mission, but being gated out of parts of the map is downright killer. The last thing JSA wants is to walk into a repeater area with no LOF to trade or dodge roll into oblivion.
     
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  20. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I see alot of spin coming from you, you've tried to attribute some emotions to me "as if" I were literally emotionally invested. I think you really have missed my points, OR, you're choosing not address them so you can circle back to your own stance and double down on the same rhetoric without contemplating what I've said otherwise you would have addressed it all. Safe bet here is to just assume you're sticking to your guns for a self image reason. So I'm not going to engage in dialogue with you further.
     
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