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JSA Order Count

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Tabletop Jay, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Tabletop Jay

    Tabletop Jay New Member

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    Greeting All,

    I wanted opinions on the average order count you are running. JSA seem to really want to be a LI army. But I have read that about 12-14 is the average.

    So, what are you running to get comfortable at 12-14 orders? Or maybe even 14+? the meta seems to be going the way or large order pools.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Quickit

    Quickit Active Member

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    I tend to run JSA in LI. It's not always easy, as most of my lists have an Oni or KHD Ninja (sometimes both), so I'm actually starting with 9 orders. I start with the Karakuri link with a Domaru, then a Lu Duan or Rui Shi, the Oni/KHD, and then go from there.
    This is the list I've been running that last few weeks and it's worked out reasonably well for me.

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (1 | 49)
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Two Haris link teams, and some support and button pushers riding along. The Husong is relatively new, as I mentioned its usually a Rui Shi or Lu Duan, but with two hard hitting Haris teams, I needed a bit more of a defensive piece.
     
  3. Paradur

    Paradur Fukurô Keibi
    Warcor

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    Just FYI you can't run 2 haris teams at the same time
     
  4. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Active Member

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    I usually try to aim for 14 regular orders and usually 2 irregular (yojimbo and warcor).

    I would never go 12, in that case you might as well go LI as you will only have 10 orders on your first turn anyway.
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Well-Known Member

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    JSA absolutely does not want to do LI.

    JSA units are fundamentally inefficient in design -- All of our attack pieces want to be on top of the thing they are attacking. CC is incredibly order inefficient, and so are our main weapons -- Boarding Shotguns, SMGs, Spitfires, and Direct Templates. A Domaru with a Chain Rifle in your DZ is going to need 2-4 more orders of just moving to reach a target than an Orc with an HMG would. Even our troops with Forward Deployment (Ryuken) and Infiltration (Ninja/Oniwaban) still want to be as close as they can to most targets.

    12-14 is a minimum for me. Anything less and I don't have the order counts to effectively remove threats without spending all of my orders closing in on things. I would rather have 8 orders on group 1 Oniwaban and 4 orders on group 2 Yojimbo than 10 orders on an unwieldy Heavy Infantry link that can get pinned in the DZ by one well place Sniper or Missile Launcher.
     
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  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Agreed with @meikyoushisui

    The focus on short range, Camo and limited Smoke (especially Smoke on non-Impetuous, non-spammable platforms) is wildly order inefficient. The act of maneuvering a TO CC combatant into b2b, possibly laying smoke or sweeping mines/defenses to get there, scoring the kill, then retreating to a safe place and recamoing is possibly the most order-inefficient way of initiating combat in all of Infinity. Since Uprising, I haven't run a JSA list with less than 15 Regular troops + 1 or 2 Irregulars in any ITS-oriented list I build.

    Even leaving CC aside, some of JSA's best units (Ryuken-9 SMGs, Karakuri) aren't exactly high-probability gunfighters. I love the Ryuken-9, but she's basically operating on the premise of "I can't hit a thing, but I can be absolutely certain you can't either." The Karakuri aren't much better, basically relying on repeated gunfighting attempts and damage soaking to eventually squeeze through some damage with their multitude of weapon systems. Pretty rough.
     
    #6 barakiel, Jun 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  7. Paradur

    Paradur Fukurô Keibi
    Warcor

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    I don't quite agree on the LI I've done quite well with limited insertion lists. Domaru tanko list and some good support pieces
     
  8. Tabletop Jay

    Tabletop Jay New Member

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    15 orders! i would love to see that. Can you give me an example? I can't see it without Keisotsu spam.
     
  9. Tabletop Jay

    Tabletop Jay New Member

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    How about this.
    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    PANGGULING (Total Reaction, Repeater) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    ONIWABAN Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 41)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    KUROSHI RIDER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Has a few tricks, but again, i feel like the order count is not high enough. Or my units are not elite enough.
     
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Well-Known Member

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    What is the role of the TR repeater here? I can't think of any justification for a non-baggage Pangguling in JSA.

    The big problem I see is that you have 3 pieces who all want orders in group 2.
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I only run 10-order lists when I break out the Samurai 7 list.

    Samurai 7
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. ()
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    It's very unsubtle, but it's a lot of fun.


    Running any number of Keisotsu seems to put me into about 14 orders.
     
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  12. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    Ghost in the Shell
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  13. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    My apporach on this. Its a list that is planned for missions where you need specialists.

    Orders for the Orderhungry
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of that list but I see few links plus a obvious vulnerable LT. Check this one out:

    Ghost in the Shell
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    DOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    If you want a REM heavy army, I think this would work better.
    With an EVO hacker you can overclock and get B2 ARO with Chaiyi, Rui Shi and Lu Duan (plus back up hacker in case bad things happens to the keisotsu); 2 Ryukens are out, but this ARO threat should make up for it (plus using a command token you can get it in turn 1 if you go second). The keitotsu Hacker have been moved out of the Core, so you can now buff your Husong/Rui Shi without risking an ARO unoposed versus the fireteam.
    I've included more keitotsus so you have the full 5 man link with the Kempei, a crappy "doctor" and a specialist in that core. The Lt is a Domaru, also pretty obvious but much more resistant to assassins; plus linkable with your core for a turn 3 push. And also as you have the Hacker out of the link you will be able to keep your 5 core bonus even if you lose the Kempei plus a keisotsu.
    If you try it, let me know how it works!

    EDIT: Version with SML, Sat-Lock and Triangulated fire options.
    Ghost in the Shell (SML version)
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    DOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #14 Ogid, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
    Káosz Brigodéros likes this.
  15. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    Asuka is the Major.
    Period.
    Your argument is invalid.

    Seriously: In turn 1 Jimbo becomes public enemy number one. My opponents were all too busy fighting him to go Lt hunting.
    I dislike 5-men fireteams. They are cumbersome to manouvre. You have the Rui Shi and the Kempei with MSV2 and the burst bonus to fight invisible attackers. Enough.
    I just looooove Ryukens. Put three of them and the Rui Shi in SF and your opponent is in trouble.
    You can have the Lu Duan masquerade as three additional Asukas. Feel free to wish your opponent happy hunting.

    Obviously the list is not trade marked, feel free to tinker around and personalize!
     
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  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I can't argue versus that. XDD

    In that list i'd recommend you to leash yojimbo at least 1 turn, with 2 MSV2 the smoke gives you a huge advantage in your turn, that's the reason i put him in the support group in my lists. He is going to be a smoke dispenser until I really need him to go ham, and in that case i'll just move him to group 1.

    If there aren't long firelanes the 4 SF are quite good, but for longer AROs the REMs with BS 2 would be better. This one is table dependent. But yeah, ryukens are amazing.

    For this kind of list I like a lot EVO hackers: B2 helps a lot in ARO, you can also do coordinated Hacking attack in your turn (this isn't the best list for that tho, but if you catch a hacker your 3 hackers could attack him at the same time) and the sat-lock becomes also quite reliable.

    The problem with the Holoecho is that you have to say that these 3 are an Holoecho, so it would be quite clear who is the real one. If you deploy in Holoecho1 then during the first turn if the other player start, they won't know; but in your first order count you'll have to place the impetuous order so in that case again she will be exposed. I wouldn't count in deceipt to keep her safe.

    If you don't like big links, maybe i'll try later another one with Core + Haris and REMs
     
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  17. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    The point of holoechoing is to form a daisy chain. One Asuka is on the left edge of the table, the other on the right. To make Lt hunting in an order efficient manner your opponent should know during his deployment, who your Lt is. Whit so much fake there is too much space to cover, consequently misdeployment is too much of a risk. By the time your opponent realise who the real Asuka is, it's just too late. Oh, the base Keisotsu could be the Lt. (Unless your opponent correctly calculate the SWC cost)
     
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  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Oh true, I didn't remember that you didn't have to say who 3 models are the holoecho until your active turn. But still, your 3 Holos need to be in coherence so in that daisy chain the real Lt is in one of the sides (and if you start, then it will be obvious)... it's still a weak disguise.

    Also kuroshi rider (btw is it confirmed KR is asuka?) is pretty glass cannon, so without CoC you just cannot risk her until the last turn (that's 33 points not carrying its weight)... it can work but versus a list with AD/TOs or a good rambo, she can be killed too easily (and a good adversary will notice you don't have the 1 CAP to buy the keisotsu Lt).
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Asuka lost an arm in her last fight, Kuroshi turned up after Asuka disappeared with a fancy cyberarm.

    There's also a fluff piece in Uprising of a "Japanese hero" being rushed into an operating theatre missing an arm...
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Well-Known Member

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    Echoes only need to be coherent to another echo, so as long as each one is 'coherent' to 2 others, you won't have a problem (a square/rhombus arrangement, for example.)
     
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