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Joan V2

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Narkano, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. Narkano

    Narkano Armed Shiba-Inu

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    With Mobility Joan coming for release next month, figured it be fun to ask how folks use her.
    [​IMG]
    The obvious answer would be as an LT with a Warcor and a Techbee. Though then you have to ask why sacrifice extra armor, +1SWC, and 2 points in taking V2 Joan over the standard Joan.
    Another option is to use her as a attack piece. However, that is a probabaly the most contentious possible roll in PanO, taking on the likes of: the Guards, Bulleteers, Tikbalangs (or any TAG), Father Knights, KotHS, Santiagos, or even De Fersen. Most of whom have some upside over her in terms of stats, cost, weaponry, or abilities/special rules.
    Perhaps she’d shine as a hybrid LT and attack piece? But is it really a good idea to bundle an LT and a big gun into a tough, but certainly killable (this is Infinity, everything dies), unit? The downside to losing her is a big gun, 3 regulars orders (Warcor and Techbee), courage, out to 3 free coordinated orders, and puts your whole list in LoL. Which would make knocking her out a top priority for most players. Taking her off the table is often made easier by putting her into Spitfire range bands and killing something so she no longer is able to use cover. Add that our only CoC is Singh and I’m kind of left wondering what her niche is.
    Perhaps there is something that I’m missing with her.
    In either case, her new sculpt looks awesome and I plan to buy it, I just hope she doesn’t become good friends with my Teutons or Bolts.
     
    #1 Narkano, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I'll just point out that you don't really lose the +1 SWC, Mob Joan Lt. is only 1 SWC rather than 2 so you've effectively got the same bonus.
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Lack of CoC in Vanilla PanOceania or Military Orders pretty much kills this profile in my mind.

    That and the choice to exclude the EXP CCW from the Lt option.

    There's an edge case to be made for the EXP CCW version in Looting and Sabotaging?
     
    MikeTheScrivener likes this.
  4. Narkano

    Narkano Armed Shiba-Inu

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    Well, sort of. Sure you get a HI Spitfire for 1SWC, but if you take V1 Joan you can just as easily tack a REM with HMG or Spitfire onto a list which had previously maxed out its SWC. Difference in philosophy concerning how to look at the SWC cost I suppose.
     
  5. rooki1

    rooki1 Korean Baccara Bot
    Warcor

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    I usually use 2.0 LT as a last card for end game phase. When you lost every other attack assets (Armbots, TAGs, guards, etc.), she will be a your perfect game changer.

    In end game phase, there is no worry about to bring aggressive LT. It doesn't matter if you lose a lieutenant, because the game is about to end anyway. What you need is a fast, decisive strike asset for your last assault. Her great mobility and the extended range of the spitfire help to go through the order-scarce situation of the end game phase.

    Just don't use 2.0 LT as a start phase front line brawler. It can put an entire battle plan in danger.
     
    injenegr likes this.
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    That's a lot of points to be holding in reserve for the entire game.

    I mean, this is a solid plan (and I've kept more back in Crocs and TOFOOS before), but it's still quite an investment in something you may not even need in Turn 3.
     
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  7. rooki1

    rooki1 Korean Baccara Bot
    Warcor

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    Well, she can do lots of things even in deployment zone. She can be a deterrent force and interceptor against enemy terror assets. 2W NWI martial artist is not easy target for most of enemy infiltrator, even though her ARM is downed to 3. And strategic benefits from her is always juicy.
     
  8. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    There's CoC in Vanilla and ASA. Bit expensive, but you don't have to bring him as an AD troop. He won't be much better than a fusi with a combi though.

    CoC is usually a rare and expensive skill (the skill itself is only 5pts, but usually comes on expensive troops, sometimes with SWC tax. Not everyone can be Tohaa.).

    Imo new Joan sculpt is at least weird, maybe ugly. What the hell is the armor on her hair? A tiara? A bag handle? Is she a suitcase now?

    Plus we already have shitloads of Joan sculpts, totally unnecessary.
     
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Obviously TAK is exception as it has quite usefull (expensive, but usefull) CoC profiles on Tankhunters and their new special character ...

    PanO - proffesional army of "Lt is down, everyone panic!" ^^
     
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  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Hey everyone be happy!



    ... that's not yet another Bolt sculp....
     
  11. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a fan of 30-40pt rifles. Tankhunter comes for 1SWC, how would you even use him? For a similar price Myrmidon officer comes with eclipse or regular smoke, a shotgun, fireteam filler, NWI (fun fact: NWI here seems to be less than 5 pts).

    I agree, that Pano needs lot more CoC. In vanilla Joan's Frenzy seems like a huge drawback.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    After an excursion to JSA I'm pretty intrigued to give her kit a second go. Lt version is out for me, simply can't make it work reliably. People just seem to forget everything else when you put Lt Joan on the table. Another thing is that I value Warcor and Techbee highly as expendable speedbumps, making them Regular is nice but means I will not want to use them for ARO.

    So what does Joan V2 do you won't find elsewere in PanO?
    MA3 CC23 EXP CCW on a 6-2 BS 15 Spitfire with 3 Wounds.
    However there are a few problems getting her into a list. First question is MO or not MO, with the obvious problem that a Magister Link outperforms her in CC and shooting. I'm inclined to say you can make it work, but she'll simply do more for Vanilla.

    She compliments our usual Attack pieces nicely, be it a Swiss, Aquila, Nisse or Tik. All of the typical PanO HMGs don't perform stellar under 16". As yet another Spitfire she needs support to get across the table, which any PanO HMG happily provides in return.
    What she is ridiculously good at (by PanO standards) is fighting in the midfield. Her Spitfire is at home here anyway and she is excellent at dealing with Camo and Smoke. WIP15 is far from wasted on her even as non Lt thanks to reliable Discover and 75% Intuitive Attacks.
    6-2 is mobility comparable to a TAG while retaining the ever convenient S2.

    Special mention to a couple niche things.
    • She is BS15 which means shooting a Marked Target without Cover in +3 has her hit on 21s with 4 dice. My personal preference is to include a TOFOOS even in Vanilla, that guy or his Crocman equivalent are perfectly capable to mark i.e. a TAG. While a bit difficult to set up, doubling Joan's crit chance and making it impossible for her to miss, really amps her damage potential against hard Targets without VIS Mods to 11. This is about the only time I actually use the FO Skill.
    • 6" Climb, Jump, Cautious Movement and of course better Order efficiency for Move+X in general are handy to keep in mind.
    • V2 has Multiterrain which makes her PanO's best choice for grabbing early civiilians ain Rescue.
    • 6-2, 3W and the Nanopulser really compliment her CC ability beyond the already useful raw stats.
    • Going second with Joan on the table, your opponent will often not know who your Lt is. A lot of people are unaware or unsure if the EXP Profile coukd be Lt. Unless you roll a 12-15 for the Lt roll, there is a good chance Joan can be deployed as a distraction that will bait your opponent into making mistakes.
    • Joan counters/doesn't care about a lot of things that are usually good vs PanO. Impersonation, Smoke, Camo and even moderate CC are usually things you need to prepare to deal with in a less efficient way.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Would say that actually quite hidden (in plain sight) is Auxilia FO. Against "hard" targets you should almost never use Combi, just try to use FO to mark a target. That's good as even the TAGs are rather nervous when facing a HFT template...
    Which you will drop at beggining of turn 2.
    Enemy always knows if Joan is your Lt (and you actually have to tell them) unless you only take units which have build in Courage. Sorry you have to give this info (ok, technically you have to say if all your guys have Courage or not, but it's equal to saying if Joan is Lt or not)
     
  14. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Do you have to volunteer it before they ask or just answer if they ask? (which people definitely should)
     
  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well, if Joan is Lt then you have to say that all your guys have Courage, if not then you just dont mention it. But everyone but very newbies players should be already aware of that.
     
  16. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    I used her in Vanilla with success, paired with HMG swiss (and with Crocs to infiltrate and push buttons + tech bee and warcor as cheap orders).
    One guy that I played against in a tournament ran a list with her, Montesa LRL, Swiss HMG and Nisse MSR on overwatch. That was pretty hard to deal with too.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    He could always know already because of the EXP CCW.
    Also Joan isn't the Lt so you don't have to explicitly point out the fact they do not have Courage. It's a little mind game of sorts that can be very rewarding.
    And unlike NOT actively telling your opponent if that Minelayer has 2/3 Mines left or if your troops have Courage with Joan Lt, it's perfectly legal by the rules.
     
    #17 Teslarod, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  18. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    I feel like I'm going to get some flak for this comment but I actually like Joan v2. Sure, she's not optimized. Sure, taking her as the LT is a huge risk. Sure, I could just take Joan v1 and be equally effective at leadership (but far less effective at combat).

    But is she fun to play? Hell yes. She go fast, she shoot gun, she swing sword! It's hard to understate the value of 6-2 movement. BS15 Spitfires kill things. CC23 MA3 is pretty dang respectable against most things in the game. Sure you are gonna get sliced and diced by Shinobu, but against the vast majority of models she's far and away winning. In the last game I played with her, I rampaged her up the side of the board, killed a Brigada and an Intruder, stuck her in CC with a Gecko and left her there for the rest of the game. My opponent couldn't peel her off the Gecko, every time he tried to CC she stuck the APCCW in his eye, and she survived the game! She was so order-efficient in her moving and killing that I still had 6 orders in the group left to do Highly Classified.
     
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  19. Narkano

    Narkano Armed Shiba-Inu

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    Question on this bit, she has sculpts for both profiles now, and one LE sculpt. For 3 models total, one of which is hard to get a hold of. I mean that’s the name number as the CSU and no one is complaining about that.

    @Teslarod
    You make strong points concerning her mobility and cautious move, but I’m still wary of the +3 -3 Swing once her frenzy kicks in. Putting that many points in a lightly armored piece that has to get into midfield to use her kit just feels wrong to me.
     
  20. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    this, this, 1000x this.
    I liked mobility armor when I first started playing, but soon realized that the extra armor and even the extra phys was more worth it. the multi rifle even compliments her a little bit more, with shock handling pesky war band troopers she doesn't want to catch herself in CC with. even in -3 range you're hitting on 12s.

    I really only consider taking Joan as an LT. I can't see great merit in taking her as anything else – we have better, or more cost effective fighters in the army

    We had two older sculpts as well, totaling 5. one was pretty ugly though imo.