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Jammers & Burst Bonus

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Pyra, May 18, 2019.

  1. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    Hey,
    I have recently noticed the discussion about Jammers and their new appearance on Spec Ops, which allow them to now be a part of fire teams. My question is: does the user of a jammer get Burst Bonus from a 3man fireteam.

    Arguments I have found that could NOT allow additional Burst bonus:

    From Special Skills Labels:
    From FireteamsBonuses FAQ:
    My interpretation: The Comms Attack label trait implies that Jammer is, in fact, an item of Equipment despite being listed under Types of Weapons and as such it does not get additional Burst as shown in Fireteams Bonuses Faq.
    FAQ has not been updated because back then it was not possible to include a jammer in a fireteam.


    On the other hand:
    From Jammer:
    - Jammer is a Technical Weapon
    - it is listed under Types of Weapons

    From Traits Labels:
    Please do NOT call me an idiot :)
    I understand that such a question might be surprising but this issue is not clear for me and in fact neither my gaming group. We are used to CB's unclear way of rules writing and always expect some exceptions.

    Enjoy so-called "coffee talk"
    Pyra
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's a Type of Weapon and therefore receives the Burst bonus.


    Enjoy
     
  3. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    ... for as long as your opponents want to keep playing you. ;)
     
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  4. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    Auto hitting jammers with BTS 12 total immunity spec ops

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It's a fair question. The fireteam burst support bonus is given to BS Weapons. So the question is, what is a BS Weapon and is a jammer one of them?

    I can confidently say, I have no idea. I just know everyone plays it as one. BS Weapon search has me redirected to BS Attack. Jammer is listed under types of weapons in the wiki. It's also a technical weapon based on it's description and traits.

    You'd think if CB is going to have rules that provide bonuses based on meeting certain conditions, those conditions would be listed where relevant. I'm sure there's some page that says it's a BS weapon but I couldn't find it with my limited search.

    Here's the first line under Rifle:
    Rifle
    The rifle is the standard BS weapon.​

    Jammer says:
    Jammer

    This Technical Weapon

    Technical Weapon says:
    • Technical Weapon. This weapon can make BS Attacks, but uses the WIP Attribute in place of BS. When using this weapon, consider all rules and MODs that would affect the trooper's BS as affecting his WIP Attribute instead.
     
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  6. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    The jammer thing is out there and as of right now indeed a thing. To be fair though Spec ops only in this one and really spec ops just shouldn't be part of a tournament non friendly engagement. They were really intended for roleplayesque campaigns and are not balanced in the least. SWC costs, point costs etc are all out of whack.
    So if this is causing a major problem in organized play ... just dont allow spec ops in the event. We all can agree on that can't we?
     
  7. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    Well, sometimes they are allowed. I am preparing for a major event in Poland that will, unfortunately, include them. This year's Interplanetario also has them in the ruleset so I guess ignoring them completely is not always an option.
     
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    We can't, as CB is doing spec-ops for Interplanetario this year.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    We can only hope that CB is using Interplanetario to see how many people try to break the Spec-Ops rules.

    I really wish they would have had someone do that in-house, or during playtest. There really needs to be someone whose explicit job in the playtest process is to (try to) break the game.
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Eh I took it last week to the NO and it wasn't that bad. It was good but it's an 8" range on a link you don't really want to get close to enemy troops.
     
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  11. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    I played vs a linked holoprojector jammer in a tournament, it didn't actually do anything. In all honsesty I don't even know if it had a jammer as it never revealed
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but anecdotal encounters don't exactly provide much evidence one way or the other. Skill level of the player, mission, and how it affects overall strategy isn't always going to be something immediately noticeable.

    This is one of my fears actually. During tournaments, 'Great' players don't take advantage of this linked jammer and beat the 'average' players who do. CB then assumes everything is fine. Average players continue to play each other with one side continually having to deal with them.
     
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  13. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    Anecdotal evidence is considerably more evidence than theoryhammer, being that it is actually field testing, actual literal evidence, rather than simply plucking numbers and perfect situations out of the air to suit those situations as you wish.

    Theorycraft has it's place but it seldom bears any resemblance to reality, I'll take an actual players three games of experience rather than a thousand pages of circular crap like "nobody takes A:HD because K:HDs just kill them, but nobody takes TAGs because A:HDs are everywhere."

    For some further background information my opponent was competant, we were playing looting and sabotage the missing spec op was clearly in a defensive link team guarding his AC2, and he definately chose the most defensible side. his counter was a fast moving well supported offensive haris.

    Spec-ops can do nasty things, but both players can take them and they all have the option of doing broken things or covering gaps for their own faction. They definately look scarier on paper than they actually are.

    We can do some theory crafting right now, in that mission I could have taken a Rasyat thus rendering the linked jammer entirely useless. Point is I didn't, I spent the 28 points on two daturatzi instead which synergise better with a Charontid, and frankly as a CA player I've never really be bothered by jammers anyway. You can only play for whats against you on the table or what the mission is and rarely both, there are too many variables for theorycraft in a vaccuum to work.

    TL:DR, Play games, moan if it beats you like everybody else, it's a game, play some.
     
  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Right on
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I wasn't clear, but the encounters presented didn't provide any details or context. I'd have to really trust someones judgement to take them at their word without providing those details.

    If a competent player is telling me fireteam jammers are easy to deal with but never tells me he deals with them as a Morat player... we have an issue. His real life opinion, backed up by a great track record and reputation, is only relevant for factions that are immune to isolation.

    The theory crafting surrounding something like a fireteam with jammer is how to build a list that can potentially deal with the situations a jammer can put you in. Or how you can take advantage of them yourself. A conversation that will be different for each faction and the tools at their disposal. So blanket statements about a jammers effectiveness are difficult to make.

    Field testing isn't inherently better than theory crafting. Any evidence presented needs to be looked at based on it's own merits. For the example you provided, if the Daturazi did all the heavy lifting.. that only speaks to an advantage of the Daturazi, and a weakness of the jammer. Possibly using a Rasyat instead means the same thing. There is no conclusion to be drawn here about the relative strength of a jammer because not everyone has those same tools. That's without even mentioning the resources invested on both sides regarding these tactics is an important factor for each faction.
     
  16. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    I don't think the situation is broken, I just don't find Jammers very fun.
     
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    CB doesn't have to do anything. The community will jump to tell you that MO can't be bad because it won Interplanetario two years ago. The community foams at the mouth about how it's not your list, it's you. Sure, those things are true, but CB has basically trained the community over the past couple years to write off things that are imbalanced as okay because decision-making is more important than list-building in Infinity. The problem is that it's partially true -- decision making is important. But because of that, when a mechanic is totally fucked and has very little counterplay (Jammers being an excellent example of this), the community is very quick to jump to defend bad game design.

    I do feel obligated to point out this is a strawman. No one says that nobody takes TAGs because AHDs are everywhere -- it's because AHDs are such a massive risk to your TAG that playing into them is a wildly uphill battle. It's not theorycraft, it's a basic observation that supports a larger argument about how the risk-reward ratio is very poor for most TAGs. (And the thing is, most players who have played hundreds of games agree with this, so its supported on paper and by ITS player results.)
     
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  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think he more means the endless circular arguments based on largely nothing but armchair players. People take TAGs, they take AHDs, they take KHDs, they deal with Jammers, they win effectively with MO, they use the Liu Xiang competitively. The accumulated Forum "wisdom" about accepted truths is IMO largely hyperbole and not that worth listening to. I am vastly more interested in people playing games and discussing what happened than theoryhammer which is dull, boring and often pretty pointless.
     
  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Indeed.

    A lot of the most critical advocates of CB, or the game in general, are players of null or limited experience with the system. Their interaction with Infinity typically involves less than 50 games at their LGS. Infinity tends to be a secondary or tertiary system for them, and most of their comments are viewed through the lens of 40k or WM/H.

    That's unfortunate, because they tend to drown the players with helpful criticism/legitimate concerns whose perspective is actually backed up by deep knowledge of the game. There are a few folks with very good critical viewpoints who are also top ITS players and (more importantly) are well-traveled and play the game very extensively.

    The forums become a much more interesting place when you can tell who is who.

    Also, for the record, about half of my ITS matches last year were played with a TAG. I did pretty well too. Speaking from that experience, the mere presence of an AHD isn't enough to cause problems. It has to be used very well, and paired with other tools that similarly need to be utilized properly. Some dice luck helps too, since a lot of AHD programs are on a 1 dice vs 1 dice curve. The point being: discussing Infinity in terms of hard counters is an oversimplification. Infinity's inherently a game of soft interactions. The presence of KHDs, AHDs, TAGs, etc. isn't enough to dictate an outcome. Lists, terrain layout, scenarios, players are all equally important in the conversation.

    As for Jammer in link teams:
    The moment I see someone actually run a Spec Ops format event, I'll be concerned. Considering I haven't seen or heard of anyone using this format in a long time though, I'm not terribly worried. If the player perception is that the format is unbalanced, players won't use is in their events.
     
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  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Did you not see all the posts where Interplanetario will be using SpecOps this year...?
     
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