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It’s your list !

Discussion in 'Spiral Corps' started by Monster, Oct 13, 2020.

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  1. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    Its Your list.


    Hello this is a small pitch for my podcast I was going to do but then life happened, it is an honest podcast talking about infinity from a very competitive side, with some vulgar language and satire thrown it. It’s suppose to explain to you why you are wrong and why your list is bad.


    and new players ! Remember all choices can be valid. And I’m trying to be a little funny while talking from a competitive standpoint.


    Anyway now it will be this post where I write about some units until me and my friend turn it in to the rage inducing podcast it should have been

    Furthermore some clarification when I call something garbage does not mean it’s unplayable it’s just not very usable in a competitive setting


    This is for a segment of the show called :


    The good the meeh and the absolute garbage.



    Good means very powerful and competitive


    Meh means you can take it but it is certainly niche or not super efficient/ feels inadequate


    Garbage means it’s a useless unit, melt it in a furnace ( kidding )


    So for tonight’s entertainment let’s talk about named peeps specifically for Spiral corps. Here is 3 units one is garbage one is meh and one is awesome I will explain why. In no particular order:


    Neema Saatar: garbage

    Neema is the fucking worst, I detest this unit and you should too, cb does nothing but tease us with could have beens, instead it’s just a stinking pile of rotting artichokes,


    Anyway neema seems fine if you have brain damage. When you look at her she has a lot of stuff on her profile. I am so sad they took her LRL from her.

    Let’s talk about why you are mad at me now and why she is awful and should be hurled from a window.


    First of she is an obvious Lt and has access to a profile with +1 lt order ah pretty cool with all the Nco in the army or strategos she will surely have ... Wrong!

    None of that for you idiot. So that profile is useless. The extra command token from previous editions would actually be kind of useful in spiral due to the higher numbers of irregular troops.


    But you say “ but monster surely she is a good gunfighter I put her in a Tri-Core with a spitfire and she did really well“

    “ shut up nerd, you play against idiots who play us Ariadna or some other d tier ape army , you don’t get to talk anymore”

    she is not a very good gunfighter , mediocre bs with no mods and a shitty gun, she has a regular spitfire ! Who even has that anymore.


    Next she is heavy infantry she is susceptible too all the hacking in the world “ but monster she has bts 9 and stealth”

    “ who allowed you to talk” anyway have you seen what oblivion does to a grown man when used on his LT thankfully she has stealth but in the active turn you are just fucked. Also one of the strengths of tohaa and spiral is the ability to be almost completely immune to infowar .Nuff said and she doesn’t like EM and there is a sharp increase in that these days.

    The shock cc weapon on her is baffling too no DA no viral just shock so the is great at murdering plebs ensuring you can’t coup de grace them or inextremis recovery them but Ma2 she can’t even defend herself against a dedicated assassin.


    She also has the breaker rifle loadout but that is 39 points so wtf is wrong with you and your upbringing if you think that is a valid choice .

    And why is she not 6-2 like a lot of HI because she doesn’t deserve it- because she is trash

    I’m stopping before I get a brain hemorrhage.



    If you would like to read the other two please reply here :) remember it’s all in good spirit, competitive spirit Xx

    Aelis Keesan
    So we back once a motherduxkingain

    To talk about how you are wrong and I am right. The last one was very spicy with some utter snowflakes defending their artichoke waifu neema Saatar in all her retarded glory.



    This time we have another sexy minx on the chopping block because I hate women .


    You guessed it you , you saw it coming a mile away , it’s Aelis the whore of artichoke Babylon


    Aelis keesan, when you think of wildcard or spec ops characters she is often forgotten and with good reason she is trash. And even worse now, we’ll kinda but hear me out


    Aelis is very expensive, but she has a lot of stuff, useless stuff. She is a killer hacker , has access to a good non swc

    Gun and has sensor and regenerate . Well yeah that is it, she melts with when something looks at her , and she can’t hack for Shit , with firewalls being active against khd and her no access to repeaters that is just a good way to get killed , the de nesting of skills also lost her shock immunity which was at least a little useful , and she has sensor in a sectorial that’s drowning in it . Her gun which is fine is kind of pointless as she should never lead a triad compared to other options.

    And what is that triad supposed to do that a Draal can’t . I know hacking classifieds are a thing , but you are better off playing something else than bringing spiral to highly classified . Or else you can just go for the secure.


    Triangulated Fire is something she has for herself. And imo she can keep it , hardly ever used- and something that might as well be solved with a Msv 2 taagma


    She also has a nano pulser which can be okay but we have Chaksas and should at least be including 2 of those suckers most likely 4 , flash pulse and d charges are nice tho and d charges and her veteran status if that sticks are good for classifieds , but then you are playing highly classified so you are doing something wrong.



    I actually rate her slightly above neema . Yes you heard me , because if she got just one thing (transmutation ) she could have been decent . Still would never take her in a competitive setting as is .




    Thought ? Discuss ? I know you guys like to do that


    good spirit, competitive spirit XoxO Monster
     
    #1 Monster, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  2. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member

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    her basic price just dropped by 6 points to only 35points, she has 3 wounds and a great basic loadout with breaker and PZF
    For that price you have an ORC hacker with multi rifle.. don't make list with her if you don't like her it's really easy to do ! :)
     
    #2 Aemaru, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  3. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Honestly Neema didn’t get worse; in fact she overall got better.

    Unfortunately, the edition and meta changed around her. The old adage of “ignore AP, acquire burst” no longer applies. She can still murder infantry just as good as in N3, but HI, Mimetism troops, and TAGs can give her a lot of trouble. Taking her Breaker/Panzerfaust profile makes her much better against high ARM, but really restricts her range and being only BS13 with no other mods means she can struggle to win firefights at burst 3.

    Overall Neema is still FINE, but she faces incredible competition for her place as “Tri-Core gunner” from the Draal w/ AP Marksman Rifle. She also can’t get much use out of her LT +1 order, as spiral lacks NCO. Hopefully she’ll be more useful in Tohaa proper.
     
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  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I still stand by the change to +1 LT order probably being a mistake. I am pretty sure she should have +1 CT.

    Specifically to points you bring up and in the same style that you wrote it:

    1) "Obvious Lt": This is what happens when you don't learn the army you are taking about. You have Taagma with Holomask and you have the Kaeltar that you will always be taking with her. If you can't figure out how to protect an Lt in Spiral Corps, there is literally no hope for you. Also, aren't there several ITS scenarios with Reinforced Tactical Link?

    2) "She is not a good gunfighter, with mediocre BS and no mods": This is what happens when you look at units in the context of the game instead of in the context of the army, and when you view units in terms of metrics they aren't even trying to compete in. In a Tricore link, Neema is BS16 with B5, which looks like other linked vanilla HI, but Neema gets none of the drawbacks of regular HI spitfires when they get core linked (such as having shitty link buddies or needing to carry five HI around the middle of the table). And that's if you're already looking at the wrong profile. No one should be taking Neema for the spitfire, you take her for the +1SWC, high survivability, and Breaker ammo.

    3) "She has issues against hacking" - This is what happens when you can't do math. With a WIP15 Reset, BTS9, and Stealth, your odds of getting hacked in your active turn are very low (your odds of getting hit by a WIP13 Oblivion on a Reset are 1 in 7, for example). You have more issues against it actively (it's something like 1 in 4 that you get Isolated), but to be honest, the fact you can reset back out of it means in the time it would take for them to hack you, they could just throw a big gun against you and get more efficient results.

    4) "The shock cc weapon on her is baffling too no DA no viral": This is what happen when you don't read the rules. Last I checked, the Viral Pistol had the CC Trait, and that still worked with MA (just not the DAM bonus)? Against pretty much all soft targets, the extra point of Damage isn't going to do nearly as much as the additional hit from the Viral Ammo. Against an ARM3/BTS3 HI, you're looking at a 60% chance for a hit to wound with the Shock CCW, versus a 70% chance to do at least one wound per hit with the Viral Pistol (and 20% chance to do two wounds). Even against an ARM5 BTS6 beefy boye, the CCW has a 50% chance to wound per hit, but the Viral pistol has about a 50% chance to do at least one wound per hit. The only places that the CCW is actually better are against weird edge cases like ARM3-4 BTS6 Knights and the Neema-Neema mirror match -- and in all of those cases, you shouldn't be using CC anyway.

    5) "Ma2 she can’t even defend herself against a dedicated assassin." I don't know what game you are playing, but MA2 received a massive buff, whereas MA4 got an equally massive nerf. The crit changes are another massive nerf to CC across the board, and they matter a lot more for Neema because of her ARM and ridiculous BTS, both of which she will have a chance to use now. With the exception of the best assassins in the game, Neema is significantly better at defending herself from incoming CC specialists than she was in N3.

    6) "She also has the breaker rifle loadout but that is 39 points so wtf is wrong with you and your upbringing if you think that is a valid choice" -- This is what happens when you can't move your eyes a few cm to the right and see the big 'ole +1 in the SWC column.

    7) "I’m stopping before I get a brain hemorrhage." I am pretty sure based on what you wrote that it is already far too late.
     
    #4 meikyoushisui, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  5. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    This is in joke and playing a exaggerated character.

    Okay. Lots of stuff here pure autism. First off this was never a debate I didn’t ask anyone to discuss what is said because they are wrong.

    however I did post some replies to you here

     
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    *Looks at Neema*
    *looks at Kiel-Saan*

    Why am I reading a Neema is crap rant?

    Spiral doesn't support HI all that great, but Neema is probably the least problematic HI thanks to being pretty cheap and having BTS9 on top of Stealth.
    I could get behind a Longarms/Kiel-Saan/Spiral in N4 is crap rant any day, but Neema? No, not really.
     
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  7. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    bruuh that is just low hanging fruit.honestly just because i rant about neema does not mean i dont hate the kielsann. it will get its own post here as well. maybe i should write the second entry now. and its not a rant when im right.
     
  8. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    in my opinion she is is no comptetition for being the tri gunner. and you would not put her in a regular triad, as spiral dont form those very well. soo the is garbage- from a competitive standpoint.

    i do like your reasoning with the now fondness of app in Infinity, something i did not really care to explain but probably should have.
     
  9. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    i prefer to win. :D
     
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'll drop character since I don't have a lot of snark left in me, but to a couple of your points:

    1) Holomask isn't an issue of "playing around" Holomask, it's that until you do something significant with one of several models that could be Neema, your opponent won't know which is which. I think this another place where you're thinking in terms of the Spitfire and I'm thinking in terms of the Breaker Combi -- I'm not sending Neema around on purpose to go shoot things, I'm using her to get an extra Kiuutan or LRLs on my Helots.

    2) By "shitty link buddies", I meant that when an Orc + 4 Fusiliers walks up the middle of the table, you can just kill the four Fusiliers. Tricore links tend to be significantly more survivable since Taagma have templates and you're likely to have a third unit in the link with much greater utility than anything else. Think point for point how much utility a Tricore link has compared to a 5-man Zuyong link filled out however you want. We have great link fillers like the Kriigel in Spiral Corps.

    3) The Skiavoros is also 20 points more than Neema. I generally assume WIP13 or maybe 14 on hackers since they tend to be line troops or skirmishers. BTS9 basically means you pretty much should never Carbonite Neema, which means at best you are going to Isolate her so that you can just shoot her? Like why Isolate her at all at that point?

    4) She's obviously not as good at shooting as the Draal. She also is much tankier across her three wounds (remember Draal loses mimetism on one wound) and gives an extra SWC.

    5) I'm okay with a 39 point model to have a high WIP Lt who is pretty hard to kill along with an extra SWC in quite a few missions.


    I don't think it got better (maybe just a little worse), but would you really go all the way to "crap"? I'm curious how you feel.
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    In that case I'd probably avoid Spiral till November and hope for tweaks with the readdition of Tohaa :P

    Here's a few reasons why:
    - Draals being significantly less dangerous to Links
    - Helots being passive turrets in a game with a slot limit
    - other army's HI and TAGs getting substantial rebates while the few Symbioarmor troops that got cheaper are HI and suffer from Hacking and E/M changes...
    - with HI/TAGs readily available Spiral NOT playing the Hacking game is a problem

    Lets say Spiral isn't in my top 10 for competitive N4 Sectorials.
     
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  12. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    so i got fuck all to do as its vacation here is another answer.

    i dont think it got worse at all. just a little different the minus 6 on draal is huge, the para kauuri is insane, and we have great board alpha strike pieces.
     
  13. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    yeah i know, i would however just start from one end and go through all the armies.
    i know they are not competitive, like a C tier army because of their tricks they can still pull shit off but its harder.

    and i wouldnt hope for to much till november, they have been trying to kill Tohaa for some time, they are not in the new rulebook.
    and they were not planning to bring them back if it wasnt for the outcry. so i predict this will be the last rendition of tohaa and then they kill it.
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well, if I you want to drink your koolaid and believe Tohaa weren't going to come back go ahead, not gonna stop you.

    I don't think the initial plan was to add them back in November, but they were bound to come back.
    CB's business model would be unsustainable if they had to keep everything up to date, they need to make money somehow, retiring Sectorials/Factions and selling a new range of miniatures for them a year or two later is the sensible thing to do.

    If you honestly believe retired Sectorials are planned to get axed, you're looking at this wrong. They're free half done templates to tweak and make money with, much easier to revamp than creating a new Sectorial.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I've wondered if it was kind of a "nerf by a thousand cuts" situation a bit. I'm worried about overreliance on the Draal to solve every problem in a game where the Draal doesn't feel as good.

    I don't think the 15 order change is as bad to Helots as losing Mimetism on the Camo profile and losing a decoy on the decoy profile. My spiral lists tended to be 13-14 regular orders and 2-3 irregulars, so I am losing maybe 1-2 models on average, and I was taking two Helots pretty often before.

    There's also a lot of nerfs that are resultant from gamewide changes -- loss of the LSG impact template for Jaan and BSG impact template on the Clipso, for example.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Your personal choices notwithstanding, to me losing a Helot or two and a Warcor is already bad for a Sectorial that can't try to play the N4 defense game with TR Bots or TO Snipers is another reason.
    Helots losing their *shellgames* with each other and other Camo is bad enough if you still could fit 3 without losing slots. Matters a bit more for Varuna where every Camo Marker could be a Jammer, Sniper, Red Fury or SMG/LRL, still not great for Spiral. Kinda feel obligated to consider two Clipsos Snipers to layer with other things in an attempt to stay alive through an enemy turn. Spiral's defense ain't great at this point.
     
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  17. melkiach

    melkiach PheroBoosted

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    I think the same as you about Helots

    The change from Camo -3 (N3) to Camo (N4), ends the game of hiding mines / helots, and that affects passive defense, being one of the weakest points in Spiral Corps (to which my form of play refers of course)

    it's time to try the Helots with the Decoy option maybe
     
  18. BlackCadian

    BlackCadian Well-Known Member

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    Hoh what’s going on here, now this is a threat that is both useful AND entertaining! And not only your initial post but rather the lively discussion that ensued. Thanks everyone!

    I definitely hope you’ll keep them coming! Maybe even make it a, idk, weekly thing? You could even let ppl vote for what unit to look at next.
     
  19. BlackCadian

    BlackCadian Well-Known Member

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    Max I ask what your top 10 might be? I‘m curious.

    Also (unrelated) we played at the DM a few years back /wave
     
  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Would you kindly not?
     
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