iterations on a theme - give me your thoughts

Gents, I've ran both of these army lists a few times. They're generally based around the same theme of stacking a bunch of defensive -6 to hit models into suppression fire as roadblocks and using squishy bits behind them to push buttons (Saito does double duty...). I'd like to get some feedback and see what the hivemind thinks of both versions in general (so look at the strengths and weaknesses for missions as varied as decap to antenna field, and matchups from lean and mean imperial army to TAK cammo spam)

I have some general thoughts as to what I attempted to do differently between the lists (most of the lists are the same, with a few key changes), I'd like your feedback as to what you identify as strengths and weaknesses of both versions

version a:
Midfield Mods
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1 10
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40)
GROUP 2 5
RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
6 SWC | 300 Points
Open in Infinity Army

version b:
Midfield Mods modified test 1
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1 7
KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
GROUP 2 7
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40)
5.5 SWC | 300 Points
Open in Infinity Army

 

@meikyoushisui & @Section9 two interesting & obviously divergent suggestions... making the Oniwaban my LT pretty much forces me to deploy him as a marker & start using him right away - he would benefit from at least one bonus order on his first active turn. However dropping the kempei gives me two extra decoy LT's and a warcor - I'd probably take the later as it ultimately results in an extra order for the oniwaban, doesn't rely upon using him first turn, and keeps my LT under wraps potentially a bit better.

I think I prefer the first iteration in general, having the MSV attack piece separate from the 5-man link adds a bit of diversity of attack vectors once the midfield pieces do their work.

 

I have been running that first list since May and generally I’ve found it to do quite well. The biggest problems have come facing Invincible Army (linked Haidao) and OSS (Asura)

I haven’t found AD to be a real issue. My regular opponents run QK with bashi and various flavours of Ariadna with either Van Zant (or worse, the threat of Van Zant) or Margot and Duroc. Lui Xing have been a bit of an issue but I haven’t lost anyone to explode Lx yet. The purpose of the Kempei, aside from CoC, was to provide that BS15 boarding shotgun up close as a deterrent to aggressive AD. With four mine layers it’s relatively easy to protect potential drop zones, and that link team’s job is to hide until late game, enabling the -6 mod attack pieces to establish board control.

I think with these lists my biggest threat is a linked MSV2 sniper like a Kamau or Haidao who are able to strike at range and deny my army’s #1 trick - while I haven’t came up against the Kamau yet, the Haidao has been able to tear me apart in pretty much every rangeband - best odds to kill it seem to be a ryuken9 in suppression fire between 8-16”, and even that is about a 30/30/40 exchange to put one wound either way...

 

High burst weaponry is limited to a keisotsu who is awful, the tag (I don't like tags and never have any success with them - usually spending at least one of my own turns killing my own tag because manned tags are awful, either failing to complete field repairs or fending off a possessed beast after my opponent shoots a picture towards my lines and takes me out through it) or the domaru spitfire. The keisotsu's 5 dice on 13s always seems to go down to the 2 dice on 16s and even if he's only knocked unconscious, without a cube he is as good as dead. Getting the linked spitfire into range is also usually problematic.

Using an oniwaban or shinobu to assault the link is occasionally doable but very terrain dependent. Discovering on 16s or better is brutal and can cause an entire turn of orders just to neutralize a single model - that can fire his breaker pistol into you with 2 dice on 16s to the oniwaban's 1 dice on 27 (or two dice on 19s against the oniwaban's 2 dice on 24s depending which martial arts you use), not to mention any other shots coming in from the remainder of the mutually supporting HI link.

I've found the best chance is to attempt a coordinated order to take out those high powered linked snipers - with this list I would consider using the missile, yuriko's panzerfaust and two mooks with combis hoping to get 2 wounds through... of course now I'm banking on the keisotsu's 50/50 odds and risking a valuable specialist

@barakiel - see I prefer saito for a variety of reasons. Yojimbo seems to die too quickly for me. He's great for his koalas but i could leave the rest of his kit behind. He can't shoot and never lives up to his potential in melee.

I find Saito to be a triple threat - smoke supports the rest of the army, he fights better than yojimbo with his EXP ccw, shoots better with his combi (can suppress for excellent area denial) and is a specialist for when that matters. In my opinion Saito is well worth 11points over everyone's favourite ninja KHD. Saito is absolutely the workhorse of my "midfield mods" list - the biggest change I've made in 9 months is to rotate which group he and the oniwaban are in. For direct action lists, saito moves to group two, allowing him to support the oniwaban with smoke; in missions that require pushing multiple buttons, saito take a his place in group one to maximise his access to orders.

Prior to the uprising i would have agrees that Yojimbo was a better pick, but with Saito gai ing specialist status and with the addition of the Ryuken9 profile... Dropping 5 models into suppression fire in the midfield on the defensive end of a minefield, imposing -12 mods is just devilish unless my opponent has invested in a strong visor presence.

As a Kurosawa fan I wish I could do mr. Mifune proud but it just doesn't work for me (I think it's the base size, or that I just embrace the extreme impetuous nature and toss him into the meat grinder un supported too early)

I also am one of the few who seems to actually really like the Saito Togan model...

 

pre uprising I made a lot of use of Aragoto - they would either die on their first order or single handedly win me games... I think I've just become enamoured with the Ryuken9 as they're everything I felt JSA were truly lacking (I don't mind limited BS options as I love the flavor). I'm waiting for the right moment to put my armored vanguard back on the table with 6 bikers and the TAG... but frankly the opportunity hasn't presented itself. I honestly haven't fielded Kuroshi at all...