What are some of the best solutions for dealing with linked MSV snipers in ISS? I faced a Grenzer MSV1 Missile Launcher in a five man link last game and made a fairly suboptimal decision to attack it with a linked Frontovik sniper. That set me to thinking about how I'd deal with the same model if I faced it with my ISS. Most of this thinking will also apply to Kamau, Haidao and some of the other scary MSV options out there. Generally, the best guns for doing this will be linked hmgs or multiple models in a coordinated order. A lot of my lists have contained a linked crane spitfire, which unfortunately could be easily be locked down in a poor range band, and moving a link past a missile launcher would be extremely dangerous. It seems like ISS have poor tools for dealing with this compared to the rest of Yu Jing, where Lei Gong brings some wildcard and Albedo to the party and there are a few more options to put in a coordinated order. Most of the link options have middling dice at best, and you risk losing an expensive heavy hitter like a Wu Ming hmg to a high damage ARO on one of your first orders of the game. So what links work? Wu Ming hmg, Spitfire Crane (hard to get range), Zhanying hmg, Hsien hmg What works well in a coordinated order? Lunah (though not that well against msv & sixth sense), Su Jian Panzerfaust (at least it can take a missile to the face...), Chaiyi Yaokong. Am I missing other units or creative solutions that will work? Su Jian cautious moving into spitfire range? Madtraps from a Kanren to force dodge? Garuda AD? Lu Duan holo-echoes to close distance? Let me know if you've found a reliable and relatively low-risk way to unblock yourself from this kind of ARO so you can get moving on your first turn.
A Rui Shi with Assisted Fire seems to be popular for Spitfire-range ARO clearing. Better dice than an unlinked Hsien and a lot easier to fix or lose. A Dakini HMG can also benefit from Assisted Fire and gets better range and Haris linkability, but can't handle Mimetism as well.
I say don't think team vs. team. Unfortunately some just have an advantage over ours. So you need to use other tools. For that particular team, kill the rest of the team. Ninja and Garuda come to mind first. Kanren too. He can only shoot one holo and you could put a madtrap in to his ZoC. Take away his +3 burst, then the sixth sense. Then you use Lunah, Bao, Tze. For example, I was playing my IA vs. Varuna and I had to deal with a Kamau sniper. I tried getting into his bad range with my Guijia but could only get in his zero range. Even then he was still shooing on 16s because I had to do it out of cover. So I dropped my Liu Xing earlier than I wanted and caught his Fusilier paramedic link leader in the blast and killed him. That broke the link and allowed for my Guijia to grind him up with his MHMG. Oh a coordinated order with holo echoes is pretty funny. Two Kanren can mean he has up to 6 targets to choose from. BTW MSV1 will not help against cyber mask. The Kanren KHD can use that if needed and even the Ninja KHD. The Deva and Pheasant both have it it but not likely to be of help.
Am I missing other units or creative solutions that will work? Linked 5 man model with triangulated fire might be one way to solve this problem (like Zhanying sensor breaker combi, Crane multi rifle sensor or Adil Mehmut). Shooting on 13 into anything with b4. It may be order intensive, but it is an option. Though depends on deployment and turn order (if you got first turn you may reserve triangulated fire model from the link to put it in cover while having lof to problematic aro) If you got second turn: 1 order - move/dodge into lof, 2 order - triangulated fire.
I'm seeing alot of really stupid suggestions here that could've been disregarded by anybody actually just running the proposed scenario through the dice calculator before tabling it for suggestion. Not singling you out Sergio, but just as an example this shit right here. A core linked MR Crane trying to long bomb a Triangulated Fire attack into a Grenzer MSR is 15% to 54% in the Grenzer's favour. You would have to be pants on head retarded to try this as anything other than a desperate act of last resort. http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n4/ Dice calculator. Very helpful tool, recommend using it alot when theory crafting.
I'll suggest guided missile tactics. ISS might not be able to use it as oppressively as, say, nomads, but a ninja fo or hacker can set-it up pretty well to handle this kind of roadblocks. The hacker can sneak around and spotlight the grenzer/bolt safely from out of LoF. Only use the FO to target less threatening fireteam members, preferably when you can stack lots of modifiers (against rifle totting line troops, a ninja trying to FO from beyond 16" has pretty good odds to get it done). The son bae also happens to be one of ISS's best options for coordinated orders (second only to bounty hunters), so it's not a bad idea to have one in the list just in case. Otherwise, use a garuda or ninja (or a su-jian if not too much hacking and terrain lets you cautious movement there) to get in the fireteam's face and kill a few members before engaging the sniper/missile launcher.
So then give up and die? What's your actual advice on what to do in that situation? Something to note the OP is about ALL fireteams MSV troops. The Grenzer is probably the worst of them since he takes away camo and cover. Dealing with it with ISS, who no longer has their own core MSV, no albedo, and only one infiltrator. Just for the sake of MSV snipers in Core fireteams: here's a list. Brawler, Briscard, Djanbazan, Frontovik, Govad, Grenzer, Haidao, Kamau, Marauder, Nisse, Taagma, Yaogat. Our tools other than our core teams are: Smoke, Hidden deployment, drop troop, speculative fire, holo projector, coordinated order. Smoke obviously doesn't work at all vs. MSV2/3 and minor vs. MSV1. Hidden Deployment with infiltration can put the Ninja in a place where the MSV troop can't deploy against it. You can try to get within 8" or just CC. But again if the team is still a 5-man, no surprise. Combat Jump. We only have one Garuda. It will be tricky but the Spitfire or BSG will help to get rid of some of the team. It might be a sacrifice but if it helps to reduce the number to allow killing the sniper it might be good. Speculative sucks. But it might be all you have. Holoprojectors can be great but it's always a gamble on if they pick the holo or the figure. Madtraps are helpful too. I may keep both madtraps instead of deploying one at the start. Move up and try do deploy them within the zone of the MSV trooper. Put holo back on and then make your attack. However it can be order intensive. Sadly Kanren kinda suck in the shooting department with only a combi or BSG. Fine for the Grenzer, not so fine for a Haidao. Coordinated order. I think this is good with a couple Kanren and Lu Duan with holos. Lots of targets to choose from. Not so bad with some Husong HMG as well. Our fireteams. I don't think the CG team is going to be able to tackle a sniper team. They only have the CG MSR who is outclassed most of the time. And their ability to use smoke is mostly useless. The Wu Ming HMG can out dice the sniper and he can possibly take the hit if it goes badly. At least now you can make the team cheaper with more Zhanying. Edit: The Ninja and Kanren hackers might be able to pull off spotlight. But need to be cautious of any team hackers as well. The FO I'd try to do out of LoS if possible.
Minor note, the OP refers to the aggressively-average Grenzer ML, not the Bolt in a Russian costume. Depending on the table, you might be able to get a Kunai into CC by using the sides/bottoms of walkways, but that's grasping at straws.
It's not what I'm suggesting but no joke it is a valid choice. ISS is actual dogshit, I would recommend playing anything else we have in faction over it but I acknowledge that people will play the factions that they love the most. What I did suggest is use the dice calculator. Run the numbers, find your best options to tackle a target, rather than suggesting really awful ideas like trying to use a Zhanying HMG or Triangulate fire with a MR Crane. If you (not necessarily you I'm generalising for the whole thread) can't be bothered to proof check your idea then sure that's a choice you can make, but don't be shocked when internet assholes come into the thread and point out the idea is stupid.
I agree, ISS has no easy ways to get rid of a core linked MSV long range ARO (MLRA). I think the easiest way is a Hsien haris, because he removes the mimitism from a Kamau and shoots five times on a 14 vs. two times on 16 (if I do the stats correct in the calculater then we have 44,54 % for the Hsien vs. 25,95 % for the Kamau). But then I remember a Omega Unit HMG trying to get rid of my fully linked Haidao ... its ended pretty bad for the Omega. At least, the Hsien has a dice more. Mimitism free ARO pieces could be dealed by an Wu Ming HMG core (vs Kamau 40,35 vs 29,88 not soo bad). Next option is Dakini HMG haris with MMS. That was it. All other requires more moving to get into range or to set up a (mad) trap for spotlight etc. and that requieres even more orders. So you need an list vs. MLRA as a plan B in tournaments ;-)
Personally I'll never use a dice calculator. That sound just un-fun. This a game, not life or death or money on the line. Might as well be playing 40k again. I wanted to get a way from Math-Hammer. I play this game because I have fun if I win or lose.
I don’t think he means using it as a tool during the game, but as an insanely useful pre/post game tool for information. Having a general idea on what are favorable actions to take is never a bad idea. If you don’t want to, that is completely understandable, but I also recommend it! On topic, aside from the crazy MSV links like MSR Bolt, MSR Grenzer, and Kamau, Linked 5-man HMG is generally always effective if not a little risky. ISS definitely has some struggles with these units, and I don’t know if brute HMG Wu Ming/Hsien is the right choice. I think ISS has to fight this asymmetrically using mobility/flanking with a Garuda/Su-Jian.
There's math in the game whether you want to admit it or not. Evaluating relative risk is part of how you play Infinity intelligently.
Agree, I've spent lots of time with dice calculators over the years trying to figure out what various tweaks to rules, stats and burst do to face to face rolls. If you don't do that, I don't think you'll ever have a good idea of the probabilities in Infinity - rules of thumb often don't cut it. There are lots of good ideas in here - it's worth acknowledging that super tough ARO teams are definitely one of the challenges for Yu Jing and ISS specifically. This isn't a faction balance problem, it's a pretty deliberate design that Yu Jing has more quirky utility units and less Pan O level shooting, so being forced to throw out this kind of creativity is what makes it fun to play the State Empire. I will note that the Grenzer ML in a five man link isn't mediocre at all, as its ability to threaten other link team members makes it *much* harder to maneuver a link to engage it than a Grenzer sniper. The extra damage potential of stripping cover from your saving throws and packing EXP ammo can be better than winning a face-to-face roll with DA ammo and marksmanship.
Not really. Let's leave aside that you're suggesting using 212+ points to deal with about 35 points on the enemy's side and have nothing else worth note in your list. The odds of Sun1 stunning a mimetic BTS **0** sniper in cover at 16-24" range is the same as Sun2 from 16-48" putting an ARM 2 sniper into unconscious given that they'll be rolling on the same effective numbers. Grenzers, Bolts and Kamau are BTS **6**, however, and will not remove the link bonus from the Orc Feuerbach or Cheerkiller SMMR. The odds are also quite terrible to be using your very expensive LT to do this in the first place: Sun1 40% at 24" range Sun1 17% vs 55% (and 25% to NWI) if the sniper shoots back at 24" range Sun1 20% at 48" range Sun2 40% at 48" range Sun1 17% vs 55% (and 25% to die) if the sniper shoots back at 48" range 150 points of Robokitty are at 65% to put the sniper in UNC and 50% to kill them. And a reminder, this is against a sniper with BTS 0. That's basically limited to Haidao. The typical snipers we're talking about are BTS 3 or higher. For 212 or more points spent, a grand total of barely over 60% to decommission the sniper is quite terrible. This is still better than a linked Hsien HMG who's at 42% vs 25%. ISS sucks at handling these, but like... use a more diverse and lower risk list to handle it. A single kitty, two ABH, and a buffed Dakini HMG as spearhead. Maybe throw a few Wu Ming in there.
I also think Kunai SMMR is essential for ISS to deal with a threat like this. Not because the Kunai is good, but because as poorly optimised as the Kunai is, it's the only unit with a skill set (good CQB, Marker state and Climb+) capable of handling it. Just pray the opponent doesn't engage their brain and use their camo sensors to Discover
The Kunai is interesting, but how have you used it - presumably you're talking about getting an angle to chip off other link team members and make the sniper more manageable? In a head-to-head with any sixth sense msv sniper, it's obviously just throwing the Kunai under the bus, which doesn't help anyone.
