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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    But, there are different ways to design a list in a competitive manner without always brute forcing a value list. Value being best or optimal model in most scenarios.

    But, lists can also be designed on synergy that address HI/TAGs such as resource (order) restriction, stop (immobilize) and pop, direct intervention, and powerful themes.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    How is that relevant to my point?
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So a faction that's known for their medium infantry and hacking with remotes on the side gets a character medium infantry hacker with a remote on the side and this is somehow the worst thing ever? Doesn't matter that Corregidor is the somewhat weaker Nomad hacker faction, conceptually this is on point.

    (I know she's not actually medium infantry, but she's medium infantry in the same way Muttas are warbands)
     
  4. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Nailed it.
    It's the same reason you'd never ever see a FRRM list without knauf. That piece is always good for all missions and define the capabilities of your games.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's the HD+ and the fact that she kicked Corregidor over the top to probably being the best Nomad sectorial for hacking. Billie is neither here nor there.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's still a big "so what?" Characters are expected to do more than regular units and this isn't exactly a Dartok. Just because corregidor are more direct action than the other two doesn't mean they stop being Nomads.
    I think you can legitimately discuss whether it's a fun design to have characters be so important for the sectorial balance, but you're literally complaining that the hacking faction got a hacker.
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    Make Uma from the same release for PanO a remotely competitive shooter or Qiang from Yu Jing actually take a hit from a current-design unit and you might have a point. Or don't, and let this game stay feeling almost like it's a black ops mission now and then instead of Overwatch Tabletop.
     
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    -Corregidor- wasn’t the uber-hacking faction though. The problem is getting a hacking device plus, not getting another basic HD. Limited access to white noise was a design drawback balancing extensive smoke and visor availability (Intruders being a signature piece of the faction). Overcoming that makes Jazz a must-take already, and a big change to the faction that is both uncharacteristic for Corregidor’s relative simplicity and brutality.

    And even that might have been an okay outlier, but she got HD plus and Trinity +1 Dam and BTS 6 and access to Tinbot -6.

    She outclasses the other options for Corregidor hacking by so much that at least 75% of my games with Corregidor feature her. The other 25% are matches where I’m consciously trying to avoid using her as a crutch.

    And yeah that feels even more egregious on a character, but that’s beside the much bigger points above.
     
    #648 Savnock, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  9. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    It's a shame I can only give this one like.
    That one character completely shafts any semblance of internal balance and means for a tournament she's an utter auto pick. She can carry a whole strategy on her own and acts as a massive force multiplier given how much repeater coverage there is in-faction, yet costs next to nothing for the capabilities she has. If she was easy to take out, she'd have a weakness which would balance her, but as she is, she has no weaknesses, covers too many bases and doesn't cost enough to justify that level of performance
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't see the HD+ as being an issue.

    For the rest, sure, absolutely. Being a character doesn't excuse a unit from balancing, but I simply don't see the Hacking Device Plus as being a thing of concern. I've got opinions about letting the primary hacking faction have access to the game's best hacking defences, but they didn't let her have a unit tag so she does reduce a Fireteam's bonuses if you bring her at least.
     
  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    When smoke and camo are your main tactics besides so-so direct shooting (and AD), having White Noise available through an extremely good repeater network is a big deal. It’s been a game-changer for me for sure.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As we see in Steel Phalanx, Aleph, Bakunin, O-12, Starmada and to a lesser degree in Morat, Onyx, Tohaa, and a few others that uses Eclipse as an equivalent.

    The question isn't whether it is good, because it is, the question is rather whether it is appropriate, interesting, and fair. I say it is appropriate here since this is Nomads we are talking about, and I say that the interactions are largely interesting, and on the face of just how many factions operate using these combinations it has to be fair or at the very least this isn't a Corregidor issue.
    So is Jazz profile itself fair and interesting? She's a character with exclusivity on a strong tool and she's not very costly unit with a fairly lean profile so how interesting is it to see a character everywhere all the time, really? Honestly Corregidor having access to White Noise is kind of expected, but as cynical as this will sound, I don't think she'd have been brought up as often if she had Mim-6 and came with a price tag of 30 points (because we know that profile and only Nomad players complain about that one)
     
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  13. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Jazz is fine in CJC. Jazz is not the issue. If someone wants to support her with a full link with a MB tinbot and Morans we're looking at nearly half a list dedicated to providing her with hacking zones and a Tinbot.

    The single biggest issue CJC has is that there aren't a lot of solid options of what to put in as far as links, and the Vostok outperforms the Gecko and MB HMG in the same role.

    Dropping the Vostok's price and removing Mimetism would be fine and open up the field for the use of MB HMGs and Geckos again.

    Wildcats need to have a reason for being, and they need their god damned box to release (seriously CB, it's been what, almost 2 years). EVADERS need their box. We could really use a refresh of Tsyklons and Lunokhods but they'll sadly be in Siocast if they ever get redone.

    Intruders could use a look, they are fantastic...if the enemy doesn't have Sixth Sense.

    The Iguana. Remove the stupid ejection system, give it 3 STR. Done. The Ejection is just awful now and not really fun or interesting.

    Gator shouldn't exist. CJC should crutch along on cheap older TAGs, the Geckos and Iguana.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Should they? They're just an ava1 unit. Why should they be extra powerful?
     
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  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    @AmPm Agreed about the TAGs, and the Vostok. Removing wildcard from the Vostok would go a long way towards balancing it in faction, much like was done with EVAders.

    Strongly disagreed about Jazz. You are not devoting half a list to Jazz: you are taking a Core team that most Players will field anyways, then bumping it with Jazz and an MB tinbot. You’re autotaking Morans anyways, unless you are actively trying to avoid crutches.

    For a marginal increase of say 30 points at most above a basic-ass Alguacile link, you get an almost-unassailable hacker with pitcher and Morans who is also amazing offensively. You also get a DA ARO piece with ARM8 in cover to defend that hacker, or to go on the offense if you like moving your Cores up into the midfield. With Morans, koalas, and Jazz to blunt counterattacks, Corregidor can do that more successfully than most other forces. Throw an EVAder engineer and Daktari in there and the link is really, really hard to take down unless you have an unexpected angle of attack.

    That link performance is fine and in-scale for the game, but getting a superhardcore uberhacker mixed into it for points is both overoptimized for points, and out of character for Corregidor. They’re not supposed to have the best gear, as you point out in the TAG field.

    @Mahtamori thrown grenade Eclipse is fine in small doses for Corregidor: it was super characterful on Massacre, who is appropriately costed and requires risk and order investment to use (unlike Jazz, for the most part). And of course it belongs in Steel Phalanx, and White Noise does belong in high-tech factions.

    White Noise in Corregidor just doesn’t fit, and is NOT expected for those of us playing it for a long time. It stands out so much and is such a serious counter to Corregidor’s intentional shortcomings that it becomes an auto-take.

    When added to a totally bonkers hacker for 7 points more than an Alguacile it’s even more out of band. Then add Tinbot -6 on and it actually deforms balance for the rest of the faction, which is otherwise quite fairly designed and costed.

    Personally I think the rest of Jazz’s standard defensive loadout could be acceptable asymmetry in faction toys on their own, but attachment to a Tinbot -6 with no effective counterplay to cut the protection down is the problem.

    Just fixing even that inability to
    strip/lower Tinbot protection would bring the rest into acceptable range. This is the way cover works in the basic rules, and it needs to be extended to the “cyber cover” that is Tinbot protection for hackers. Repeater Firewalls can be avoided by getting in close or using your own repeaters/pitchers… Tinbots cannot. Tinbot protection for hackers -should- be more persistent than directional cover because a hacker is potentially vulnerable to threats from across the board… but there needs to be -some- way to mediate it for some order investment.

    [And of course Tinbots on non-hackers like HI are fine, so any Icebreaker mediation against Firewall benefits should really be confined to hackers. It also gives KHDs a bit more utility and complexity.]

    No one will mind seeing Deactivators buffed or an Icebreaker program that halves Firewall benefits, I think. It’s generally more enjoyable for players when game designers pass out new toys than nerf/remove things.

    Seems like our various stances on this issue have been pretty well-explained. Debate with you guys is always pretty good (one of the things that’s nice about this forum), but the discussion is starting to feel circular at least to me.

    We’ll have to see how the issue gets resolved as the faction evolves.

    For now, having Jazz with -6 Tinbot be known as a common crutch and a thing anyone has to be aware of when facing Corregidor will have to do. I use her when “playing uphill” against players more skilled than me, but wouldn’t field her against an even or less-skilled opponent.
     
    #655 Savnock, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  16. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Dropping Jazz for the MB Hacker get's you a still amazing hacker behind a Tinbot, and saves you enough points to slap in a second hacker or pick up a Tsyklon if you don't have one. In ARO 2 hackers hitting back is much better than just Jazz. You might miss out on Trinity, but tbh Oblivion is better in 4/5 cases. As far as pitchers, she has them, it's nice, Tsyklon into the enemy DZ is better.

    But I do agree the arguments are just going in circles. Obviously we all have different metas, preferred playstyles, etc. that will influence perception. Hence the need for hard stats from CB.
     
  17. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    You’re ignoring White Noise, especially with Pitcher extension. And her Trinity +1 DAM is demonstrably better on the offense.

    Do love that MB hacker though, mainly for Haris. The D-charges are also nice.
     
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  18. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I'm not ignoring White Noise, it's just sometimes I don't care about it. Usually you can just shoot them down, and if not you have options like Eclipse, Hellcats, etc. It's nice, but not a necessity, especially if you are going up against factions that don't have a ton of MSV or all their MSV is linked and you are going to want to shoot it anyway.

    So no, I didn't forget about White Noise. I just don't think it's a must have.
     
  19. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I’d say similar if adding White Noise cost much, but for 7 points over a normal hacker, plus great Trinity and BTS and dovetails on top of defensive hacking and Morans I always take anyways, it becomes an auto-take.

    And if you field a Vostok, White Noise is a must-have and kind of an easy button for handling any troops which can see through your Mimetism. GML is super easy to toss on top of that too. The list kinda writes itself.
     
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  20. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with Jazz being game-breakingly good, but definitely feel she's over optimized.

    Looking at nomads as a whole, I would almost always rather use Jazz than an Interventor if I want an HD+. The 2 point cost saving and pitcher are better IMO than +1 WIP and +3 BTS.

    If Jazz was costed at around 24-25 on her own, this would still be a difficult decision.

    This is even more apparent when Jazz & Billie are about the same cost for 2 orders as an Interventor is for 1 and cheaper than the fast panda Interventor
     
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