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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    On the topic of defanging KHDs, I really think it was a huge overcorrection.

    Redrum was an insanely strong attack program. Removing it would have nerfed KHDs enough.

    But now we're struck with a Burst 3 DAM14 normal ammo program as the only option of attack. And it is affected by firewalls, another big nerf. It's basically the equivalent of a combi-rifle in hacking terms, and I'm pretty sure no one considers combi-rifles a good and effective weapon. Can they get kills? sure. Is anyone gonna be scared of them? most likely no.

    There are a few hackers that have access to a buffed up trinity and those usually can make better use of the program, but those are the exception, no the rule. Otherwise KHDs are laughably weak unless you're using them to ARO en masse. And I'm not sure how many factions can even do that (Nomads sure can, at least nomads vanilla. I can probably put 3 KHDs in a list without handicapping it).

    Having spotlight not last for more than a turn might help as well, since that targeted state staying on for so long also allows for some silly things like spolighting in ARO.
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Probably not going to happen, that's how N3 was and they changed it to make hacking less useless against "unhackable" armies.

    Which would be fine if they didn't let you yeet repeaters from one end of the table to the other. It also really shouldn't be applying a -3 to reset out of it.

    Which is funny because somebody in CB "nerfed" pitchers from max 48" to 40" in N4, like that achieved jack shit lmao. Some dumbass was patting himself on the back all like "yep, that'll fix it!" :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
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  3. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Because Jazz is not the problem. It's GML. And if you have to bruteforce hack an hacker at all costs, it's the linkability with a Tinbot-6. Make her unlinkable. Problem solved. Doesn't change a single thing about her.

    Or ... using an argument as great as "Albedo" ... just use an AP hacking programm. I bet there are at least as many units with an AP hacking programm as there are with Albedo ...
     
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  4. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Eh, there is a lot of complaining that things like a KHD don't just gank hackers anymore. Should KHDs be more effective? Sure, why not. Should they ignore any and all defenses? No.

    Give the KHD itself the AP ammo type for all programs it uses? That keeps things like Trinity on Jazz from gaining the same bonus.

    Spotlight is fine as an ARO, it gives hackers something to do vs targets that would traditionally ignore them. Again, the GML is the issue here because there is no counter play to the attack itself.
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Fireteam options are part of what makes up whether or not units are good, or even busted. For example, So-Ra has literally gone from being pointless garbage to a solid unit just because she had her fireteam options fixed.

    Vostoks cause massive internal balance issues in Nomads largely due to being wildcards. Makes them compete with and invalidate lots of other fireteam pointmen.
     
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  6. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    That's why you take Mary with the Interventor. She has Trinity as well, even with AP. Now you can outhack two top hackers at the same time. Sounds like even more fun.

    And because the Interventor alone is somewhat easier hackable ... it's an advantage that there is no repeater net standing turn 1. You don't get the Interventor before he gets you.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to think you've never even used a hacker before.... nothing you say is how the game plays. If you are engaging the TJC player via hacking you're not going to do it through their repeaters. You're not going to fight Mary and an Interventor at the same time. If Mary gets attacked she's not even going to have her own firewall to protect her.


    Uh, no, that means it's more likely the opponent's pain train fireteam/unit storms across the table and stomps your face in. Perimeter defenses are important to defending yourself.
     
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  8. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously seeing a lot of GML in competitive play ? I haven't seen a lot in my last tournaments.

    Sure you can have a lot of repeater and spotlight opponent as they approach. But that also mean you sacrifice 1,5 SWC + the hackers cost fort it. Also the stuff is near you, going on a rambo, and maybe going to kill your stuff. If its a link team with an engeneer, it can remove the spotlight before you finish your turn. Seems to me there are a lot of way around it.

    And during active turn that means at least 3 orders to get your pitcher, spotlight and shoot. More likely 4 or 6 depending on how you roll. Not sure it's worth it most of the time.

    Right now I think GML are a decent solid option, but not something OP ... unless I'm missing something.
     
    #308 Marduck, Apr 5, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  9. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    TBF, let's not pretend that vanilla Nomads or Tunguska doesn't have options for that.

    Let's also not pretend that CJC is beating out Vanilla Nomads or CA...
     
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  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    What exactly has Jazz to do with the Vostok?

    Guess what? You can take the Vostok together with the linkability of Jazz as well as the Vertigo.

    Till they are in range or LOS, they are in hacking range, don't worry.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Vanilla does, TJC basically doesn't. They don't have the option to set up a decent forward repeater network or skirmisher line to stall out the opponent if they're player 2, it's way easier to run them over with a pain train compared to CJC. If TJC is player one they have to choose between going for their alpha strike or setting up defenses, they're probably not going to have the orders for both. CJC gets to do both because they start with repeaters and perimeter weapons upfield and can just kick off with whatever alpha strike they feel like.

    Yu Jing had a similar game changing moment when the Guilang had the N4 profiles update. Getting minelayer on Deployable Repeaters that Infiltrated meant they could actually reliably project a hacking skirmish line and it became a viable part of defense.
     
    #311 Triumph, Apr 5, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They're uninteractive and produce unfun gameplay that forces players to adopt very specific counters. Just because you can counter something doesn't mean it's healthy for the game.

    N3 has a very big issue with alpha strike based gameplay at 300 points. There's a bit more of a discussion about it in this thread where we're talking about playing at 400 points helps lessen these problems.

    I want to point out that alpha strike being a major issue with N4 isn't really a new issue, it's basically what the core of the issue @Zewrath was pointing out like 2 years ago in this other big thread about game balance.
     
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  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I had a long text reply but in the end I think it is better to summarize it.

    First your attitude is bad and hardly convinces anybody to be sympathetic, I would advice changing that.

    Secondly while I will recognize a minority of players, the "top tier" if you will, can utilize far better the game mechanisms and the tools provided in the lists than the vast majority of the player base, they are not an indication of how the game is played, or what the game needs, if a game mechanism is unusable for the vast majority of the player base, it may as well not exist.

    I do appreciate "top players" especially their ability to break rules apart and find exploits for advantage, they are always a vast resource for bug fixing and FAQ entries and occasionally an early warning for units that needs adjustments.
     
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  14. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Yea, alpha striking has always been effective. Your enemy can't shoot you back if they are dead after all.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and N4 has just made it get stronger and stronger. Easier to spotlight, easier to missile.

    More cost efficient links, BS19 shooters, the freaking Vostok, etc etc.

    They made it even stronger while also removing the main counter which was body spam, sticking a horde of ablative junk models in the way to absorb orders. With only 1 effective combat group now as well this also meant gutting a couple of key models tends to cause a massive momentum advantage to the attacking player.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    When you are blatantly ignoring facts despite multiple people repeating them to you in multiple threads every damn time you lose any sympathy anyone has for you. You're functionally just being an annoying troll at that point, you add nothing but useless noise in a discussion.



    This would be a fair argument if said game mechanic wasn't literally this:
    • Stop taking AHDs on garbage profiles like Zerats, take them on really good profiles like Proxies and Guilang
    • Kill the enemy KHDs with your KHDs
    • Now, because it is safe to do so, use your AHDs to lock down and cripple enemy HI and TAGs.
    That was it. It was literally put the square in the square hole. Use the appropriate tool for the appropriate job. People were literally just too dumb to figure this out. It was literally no different to "use the long range gun guy to shoot at long range, so the short range gun guy can get close."
     
    #316 Triumph, Apr 5, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well the problem here is that if you overpower a tool like basic hacking to the point where the average player can make good use of it when they had an aversion to it to begin with, it means it's unbalanced in the hands of people who really know what they're doing.

    I maintain that the reason so many players were opposed to seeing KHDs is they were designed to interact with hackers in a competitive way, and a lot of players wanted hacking to be an uninteractive solution to enemy attack pieces, lieutenants, etc. And the problem is CB indulged them.
     
  18. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see this place is still soo ... charming. Makes me want to stick to my local community forum.

    Btw, I have rarely seen any hacking device other than KHD in N3. I was so true that most of my list, especially in MO, relied on the bet that I would not meet a lot, if any of them. And it turned out to be true most of the time. I love how hacking works now. It's almost like CB did exactly what I was hoping for the hacking.

    Degenerated things like the Bolt or Grenzer Sniper in FT + repeater and hacking everywhere + crit not going though TAG armor have made alpha strike harder in my limited experience. I'm glad for the change in how fireteam works, but I'm concerned about how to defend well againt a TAG when playing Ariadna now.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Corregidor uses the tactic pretty frequently, and it's tied up in all the goodies CB keeps giving Nomads.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't know how true this is for Infinity specifically, but Euro players tend to avoid interaction like the plague in many games to the point where it's become a meme.
     
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