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Is this the state of things?!

Discussion in 'News' started by Blakhart, Jul 14, 2021.

  1. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    Actually, another reason could be we (based on a small sample size admittedly) are unfortunately also getting a fair bit of 'will play you when you move up to N4' or let me know when your good to play N4 sort of comments, which is really discouraging and comes across as pompous and arrogant.

    It seems C1 has introduced (or shining a light?) on a fair bit of snobbishment within the community - its only occasional comments but its definitely there - ive had it from about 6 different N4 players and colleagues have had similar. This attitude means you are less likely to go into established N4 communities as you dont want to get looked down upon or ridiculed.

    Actually there's an example of that attitude in this thread ' it's functionally only any good for literal baby's first wargame with a community that hasn't done table top wargaming before.' Think about someone coming new to a club and hearing that, or think about an established wargamer of 30+ years gaming taking his first look at C1 as likes that its not as in depth as N4 and sees an attitude like that to a game they are interested in playing. It just comes across as a community who thinks their way is the only way and that why would people enjoy simpler games - you see it a lot with Historical or rank and flank players who assume theirs is the only way worth gaming and it was a shame to come across all of this when i stuck my head into the Infinity Communities.

    Luckily have found some great players locally so if I have questions I tend to go to them rather than coming to a Forum of people who I dont know and I read what some think of a game I am enjoying.

    Sorry, just realised that turned into a rant but it is an issue, I know of at least 2 who finally took the plunge due to C1 but have now stopped playing Infinity as were pushed to N4 after 1 game of C1, found it too complex/fiddly so have gone back to other systems as the people playing N4 with them ridiculed C1.
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's one of those games where you suddenly get the option to do alot of things other games don't give you, and either that's going to click and make them think "hey that's exciting I can do all this shit really?" for other people that immediately falls into the too hard bucket where they don't want to think about it.

    The reality is Infinity was never going to be the game for those players. Even if you can coax them to play a few games they're the type of player that'll exit the system after they get surprised by one too many unexpected events like Van Zant or Hidden Deployment Ninjas stabbing their shit.
     
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  3. Exuin.exe

    Exuin.exe Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I look forward to playing C1 along side with N4. I really like the idea of being able to swap between playing kitted out cores and harris's and efficient lists to playing quick casual "I like these 10 minis and they look cool" and not feeling bad about taking that to C1. I feel C1 is a great way to play with individual units and learn effective movement around the board. Not to mention C1 really gets a lot of use out of the cheerleaders we put in as order fodder and or throw away. A Fusi with a combi in C1 can be pretty effective if used correctly and gives models like that a purpose. It's kinda sad to say but it'll probably be a reason to actually take blackjacks and such in lists too. I get that it's not the full game and the pervasive attitude of "just play N4" is but really having C1 be more of the beer and pretzels "i just wanna move around my metal space army men and make pew pew noises" is kinda a perfect foil to N4s extensive ruleset and heavy pressure from the meta.
     
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  4. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I’ve had some luck playing C1 with a friend who liked the Infinity model line and the intro rules, but then tried to get into the full N3 system and promptly decided to migrate to Malifaux and use his Infinity models for a miniature-agnostic game (I forget the name). He’s a dad and works full time and doesn’t want to be a competitive tryhard in his limited spare time. I can’t fault him on that one.

    C1 is good on its own merits. It feels like people are overthinking what it’s “supposed” to be?
     
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  5. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    But these are also the sort of players who could have been happy to stay at CodeOne and would have added some diversity (in character) to the player base.

    Agrees, its a lighter version of the game and as I fall into that Working Dad model its perfect for me :-)
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    A forever C1 player is about as useful to me as a 40k player, they may as well be playing a different game. I get that you may not like that mentality and see it as elitist but really it's just honesty. I devote alot of energy to introducing people to Infinity, people who aren't going to like the game are nothing to me and I don't have any time for them. It's simply a case of forget them and move on.
     
  7. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    Wow, love the honesty but it really is coming across as you only introduce new players for your own personal benefit as opposed to more people getting into Infinity (Either ruleset) or wargaming.

    The fact your happy to forget people you invested time into teaching a great game to just because they prefer a different variant or game is astounding.

    To turn it back on its head, i would think players with your attitude and view of other human beings are about as useful to someone bought into the game via C1 as a 40k player is.

    Genuine question - if you think so little of C1, why are you in this area of the forum?

    All I am reading is some great text to discourage members and reduce the community, the fact other people have liked your comment does not encourage new members and is probably a good answer in itself to the OP question.
     
  8. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    How is that surprising to you? I'd wager most people practice whatever hobby primarily for their own enjoyment. Some go above and beyond that by building and fostering a larger community, but one shouldn't expect that to be a given.
     
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  9. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    Guess have just been lucky in the game communities have been involved with over the years as mainly play games from independents and smaller company's - but then even the GW LotR community has that positivity (Never been in the Warhammer/40k/AoS communities)
     
  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    And that's great, honestly. I prefer a more sober approach rather than "positivity only", but I can see how that can help newcomers settle into a community. For GW products the customer base is comparatively large, so you'll naturally find pretty much all temperaments and preferences represented somewhere.
     
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  11. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    Tend to have the attitude if you cant say something nice, at least try and be positive (as enough crap in the world as it is without bringing it into my downtime) :-)
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's more or less accurate. We have a local Infinity community because I decided I wanted to play Infinity. I spend time getting people into the game, coordinating stock for the LGS, running events, supplying terrain and promo kits, and other various activities because I want to ensure I have a space and a community to play Infinity with. Other people benefit from this but first and foremost I do it for me, yes.


    If someone makes it clear they aren't interested, or is clearly a lost cause then there's no reason for me to keep hassling them. If they aren't interested why would I waste my time continually trying to sell them on N4 instead of just teaching somebody else who actually wants to learn or playing with people who actually play the same game as I do? My time isn't endless and we both have better things to be doing.


    Morbid curiosity. The thread title popped up on the feed and was click baity so I came in to see what people were complaining about, it wasn't even apparent the thread was about C1 when I clicked on it. I keep coming back only because you keep whinging about my attitude towards C1 and it's mildly amusing how personally you take it.
     
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  13. Torkijo

    Torkijo Active Member

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    Glad i amuse you, was not personal really, just didnt realise people like you still exist as thought the world had moved on, but hey ho, time for me to move on rather than waste your time.
     
  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I don't see what there is to be done about any of this.

    Corvus Belli introduced CodeOne for two reasons: A. To make it easier for retailers to stock a useful subset of Infinity models. B. To give the people who were happy with the game at the [Operation: Weather System] level a real game to play.

    Just like with the old [Operation: Weather System] rules, if someone is playing CodeOne they may get to various points where they poke at the rules and game mechanics, ask questions, and someone says "There's a somewhat more elaborate version of those mechanics that you may be interested in trying." But not every CodeOne player is going to have that experience.

    It's sort of amazing how little of my Infinity collection currently has CodeOne rules, but I still think it's fair to say two things:
    - "A rising tide lifts all boats" is true in this situation. Not everyone is going to be interesting in the big N4 boat.
    - The great thing about wargaming as a long term hobby is finding out that you can like different things at different times. And a game company releasing a bunch of related games means that you can hang around while trying different things.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You know Infinity is not a religion, nor are any of us priests that need to proselitize, do you?

    I find strange that you think people should go using up their free time teching people games they do not play, or that they need to divest time from their personal project that strengthen the Infinity Community in order to try and teach a pruned version of the game. Specially when, in my experience, without people like Triumph "herding" players into events, games and tournaments, few (if any) would bother to take his place and keep the community alive; they would instead go into the forum and rant because no one wants to organize things for them.
     
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  16. Arschbombe

    Arschbombe Well-Known Member

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    There is a wide range of possibilities between being a proselytizing priest and an elitist douche.

    It seems to me that there would be some value in being more welcoming to new players wanting to start with C1. They may not be the opponent you want right now, but they could become that opponent with a little guidance and tolerance.

    The attitude here reminds me of the try hards in 40k who can't be bothered to play a 750 point battle against a new player because they're stuck in 2000 points tournament prep mode all the time.
     
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Can you please go back to what would resemble a logical conversation?
     
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  18. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    I played a wide variety of miniature games systems over the years - had heard about Infinity on and off for quite a while but at the time the aesthetics didn't appeal to me and it seemed very opaque to get into... not necessarily because of the rules overhead (I'm on OG Battletech player so a big rulebook doesn't scare me) but really because of the presentation and imagined sense of elitism around the game.
    I found CodeOne literally right as it came out - having been trying to like Kill Team for the past couple years (but ultimately hating it and hating GWs business model) I figured the most I could lose with C1 was $120 and the time it took me to paint everything.
    There was literally no Infinity community that I was aware of in my area, and we were deep in the pandemic at that point anyway, so I committed to just playing against myself until I learned the game.

    For me, I was immediately intrigued enough that I started reading the N4 rules when they came out and in some ways in retrospect I'm a bit confused by what the C1 rules were trying to achieve. The increase in complexity on purely a rules overhead level in N4 over C1 is actually kind-of trivial.

    The bigger difference I think, but one which is harder to see immediately, is that the figure/faction availability and rules ecosystem for C1 creates a much simpler and less threatening 'meta' for the game. It's not immediately apparent to a new player, for example, how valuable it is to have a ton of cheap orders... nor is it achievable for someone building their first army who doesn't know what all to buy yet, because they're going to gravitate towards big stompy badass looking figures over simple cheerleaders - C1 solves this by making everything "Limited Insertion". Likewise things like rules for Repeaters (not present in C1) aren't complicated... but they open up a very deep (and potentially unfun for someone who's not equipped to deal with them) additional level of the hacking game.

    The problem I think is that C1's simplified meta sort-of fractures the community, because there's really nothing for N4 players in C1 - Rather than pulling N4 players "down" to C1 to mentor the noobs and eventually pull them into the wider ecosystem, the N4 people are incentivized to keep playing their nearly identical game with the toys they're used to while the C1 community is likely composed almost entirely of brand new people playing within the new C1 community. And they will still find it daunting to go from their neat little limited insertion lists to 15+ Orders, multiple combat groups, and ITS missions (again, not because any of these concepts are inherently over-complicated, but because the skill ceiling becomes much much higher).

    I was self-motivated to try and figure out N4, and I'm committed to playing it now and teaching my friends the N4 rules rather than C1, but I have the benefit of a meta that's currently limited to the lists I've curated and many many solo practice games balancing those lists against each other, obsessively reading the forums, and asking questions, as well as having enough disposable income to buy and build multiple armies and a decent existing terrain collection, which I'd imagine isn't the path a lot of C1 players are going to follow.

    Edit: I think another thing that discourages easy crossover is that the limited army lists make it difficult for N4 Sectorial players to dabble in C1. For example, even though i started with Operation Kaldstrom armies for PanO and YuJing (which do track pretty well into Svalerheima and White Banner Respectively), I got interested in TAK specifically when I started playing N4... but TAK units are not well-represented in the C1 version of Ariadna so I'd need to do like 60% proxies just to make a 10 order Ariadna list. It's understandable that C1 needs to limit the model pool, but it segregates N4 and C1 players by design, which works a bit counter to the goal of expanding the player base.
     
    #38 Lawson, Aug 1, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  19. kghamilton

    kghamilton Active Member

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    This. All of this
     
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  20. kghamilton

    kghamilton Active Member

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    Those of you interested, we at Loss of Lieutenant are running a challenge for the month of August to play games of Code One and write a report of your experience.

    Already have some excellent and insightful write ups, from both veteran and new players.

    Send us your thoughts to lossoflieutenant@gmail.com

    winner will be announced at the end of the month and you could win a blister of your choice!

    Continue the conversation over at discord:
    https://discord.gg/vNb8c9eeGx
     
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