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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Iggy. It's pretty much the only TAG I look at an go "why would you run that from a mechanical POV?"

    It's worse in QK than CJC, but mostly that's because QK is showing the fact its out of production more than most.

    I'm certainly looking forward to QK getting Code One treatment in 2022 (hopefully retaining the qasi NA2 feel it has now).
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Iggy isn't a piloted TAG ;)
    Anyway, that's a tangent if any for this thread
     
  3. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
    Warcor

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    lizard VS dragao hurt the most,
    clearly the lizzard is just a reminder of the old days

    my idea for the lizzard would be to drop it's stat a little to represent that it's an antique maybe ARM 7 dodge on 9
    and giving the pilot a gizmokit and up the gizmokit repair to 12 or 13
    this way you could guts roll in cover and then eject the pilot to attempt repairs since you don't have any reroll you could end up killing your own TAG ^^
    I think it fits the tinkering mindset of bakunin: hazardous field repairs ^^
     
  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Engineer(reroll) on a BJC only profile?

    It's old, rugged, reliable and it's systems are known inside and out by the Clockmakers (and less so everyone else) so they don't need the high end diagnostics of a rem. pres. TAG to know how to fix it.
     
  5. SpectralOwl

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    I know I have trouble considering my Squalo for Vanilla PanO; even with the fancier and affordable command options, pistol upgrade, Hacking protection and lower price it just doesn't compete with the exotic loadouts of its competition. The Lizard's actually OK in Bakunin, if your meta isn't chock-full of the newest minmaxed nonsense it should make a servicable choice for when you need a big fat anvil to break your enemy on. It's Vanilla I think it struggles to compete in; the Szalamandra is the exact same price and packs a better main gun, highly-desirable BTS9 and the game's only KHD Pilot to murder unsupported Hackers other TAGs would need to give a wide berth. Un-ruining (and/or bringing back) the HGL and doing something fancy to the Flamethrower itself (AP on a Flamethrower would be deadly) would make it more attractive as an artillery or CQB piece, as compared to the competition.
     
  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Just a Clockmaker (or Clockmaker light with less WIP but still the +1B Gizmokit) as the pilot would be epic and unique without being too strong comparative other Tags I think.

    Booty on a TAG would be awesomely Bakunin-esque too.
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    just look in this same thread, several people says that nomads are top shotters, metadeffining, good at everything, without real problems, or the like, and even insulted for saying that the data negated that they were top! I don't plan to quote someone insulting again in this forum, last time I did, I was the one publicly call for ban instead the one doing the insult

    If you look into comparisons to see if a certain unit is op or not, is compared mostly against something nomad.
    remember that when kriza appeared, there were so many complaints in the forum that CB came to nerf it.
    but if you want quotes, you have this thread prior n4 about the new edition:
    Nomads in N4
    where you yourself say this:
    numbers showed it was not, you know. I could dig more looking for those kind of comments, but a lot of threads were lost in the last forum change, and doing it will bring nothing to the thread (I only did it because you asked for quotes...)

    I have not complained about oblivion, I just stated that isolation got nerfed while inmm got buffed, and someone negated that...I just tried to explain my point.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What data?

    That's not a bad thing, it should have been nerfed.

    You're complaining about stuff I didn't say. Nobody was complaining about TJC being overpowered, which was my point.


    You literally used the word "Oblivion" so yes you did complain about Oblivion. You're wrong, deal with it.
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the data from ITS that someone collected, shown several statistics, and there were a lot of comments about at that moment...I think you also commented then, but I might be mistaken because your comment in the nomad subforum.

    Maybe yes. But think about this: some tester said that the combination of the malus from FA and suppresive fire was intended and was "the cool think of it" (something like that), which, in my understanding, means CB was ok with it, but only nerfed it because all of the complaints. Even there were things more OP than the first full auto, none got so many complaints to the point CB decided to nerf it.

    you said this:
    as an answer for this:
    we could follow up... I refer to nomads in general, and I also mention TJC maybe because it was put as an example of having "no problems while being strong in hacking, shotting and almost anything else" (or something on that style), in this same thread in early pages. Not necesarily yours those messages.

    you were quoting this in your message in then:
    Is this healthy for the game?
    and after saying that you don't take me seriously. Yes, I've used Oblivion, not in the message you quoted, not with the meaning you understood. I might have problems sometimes when trying to explain my point of view and missuse terms (and if that happens, I try to explain, and sometimes other have made me realise my mistakes), but man, that quote says nothing about oblivion at all!

    I think we can leave this. This bring nothing to the topic, and I don't think we could agree to some point
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Which data? For N3? At the time of the TJC release? I don't think you're following what I'm saying.


    Gonna need a citation for that. Sounds like you're making stuff up.
     
  11. SpectralOwl

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    From my experience when I was most active in N3 (around the Varuna release) I always found Tunguska to be a fun opponent, Bakunin was a bit underpowered running anything except Riot Grrls but was nevertheless entertaining, Corregidor was hilariously bad without either McMurrough or a player skilled enough to use its great mobility (where it became a terror since you couldn't protect key units), and Vanilla was the seriously dangerous one since the Nomad synergy-heavy play worked best with a wide toolkit and no temptation to waste time or points on Fireteam gunfighting.

    From my own perspective I played Vanilla and Bakunin. I liked taking out Bakunin on occasion for its different play experience and strong board control, though I disliked wrangling Morlocks and losing all the gunfights enough that it didn't stay a main faction for me, and Vanilla offered some sorely-needed elite firepower and reliable mobility. I really wanted to like Tunguska, it seemed an excellent fit for my playstyle, but it was infested with Mercenary Characters integral to its best builds from day one- something I despise from a fluff and aesthetics perspective and the reason Corregidor was never considered for my personal army.

    As a whole, Nomads never felt busted or broken to face but had the potential to be the most boring, because of how little you could really do to stop them doing anything if the player was good- they have all the tools to rig fights in their favour if the player is willing to invest the orders. It's fun to be on the controlling side of that, letting a big plan come together with a spectacular payoff, but without the often highly specific tools needed to disrupt that plan it's a bit dull to play against- especially in light of the current Hacking balance, and the new units and the shift in Fireteam design bringing Nomads much closer to parity in direct combat too.
     
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  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    TJC was released the year before...so no, it was not the same time.

    And quote from that I think is imposible now, I'm affraid that thread was lost in the last migration. If there is a back up of the forum, it was one of the "news thread" in the spanish forums from when the KB rules were shown. Anyway, feel free to believe me or not. But if you ignored your own quotes, I don't spect for you to believe it anyway
     
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  13. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Good that Nomads are my main faction because nearly every thread in the forums sooner or later derange into "Nomads are op" discussions.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you mean this thread: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/2019-in-numbers-its-data-analysis.36359/

    CB posted a similar stats break down shortly after, but their data was across a different and much larger data subset. TJC was released during this forum's live time, by the way.
     
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is the thread of the data. It got one year, while CB's was only a few months instead, not larger
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I seem to recall that their data set spanned all lists created while Ieldin only looked at lists reported for tournaments (ignore the JSA anomaly for Yu Jing, it was a bye match that got reported weird). Either case, they got slightly different results, both basically confirming the community's suspicions that Dahshat, OSS, Tohaa and Spiral were bonkers (but by different degrees) - on the other hand, that edition also played straight into those factions' hands due to favouring those factions' playstyles, which I think is the most relevant take-away for this discussion, namely how the edition's systems play into specific factions' strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I think there was a little missunderstanding with CB data. They can see all lists stored in army, yes, but they cannot see all lists used in tournaments if they are not reported. They can do statistics about usage in lists stored, and usage in tournament, separately. But unless they store in a hidden place all lists ever created by all users, and compare with tournaments timestamp, and do a guess game based on the user usage (which in some cases is impossible because there are a lot of onetimers that don't report, so an extrapolation is not viable) is almost imposible to get that data. And even getting it, it would still be a guessed one. Also, if there was that hidden table, why limit the users then?

    I think is safe to think that due to storage limitations, they dont save that extra info, so they cannot do a big lists extrapolation. So obtaining the data usage at differet times, be it mid season, late season, or other, might end with different results because they can see the data at the extraction moment, not when the different tournaments were held. There can happen that a person doesn't have any stored list of the tournaments they attended and didn't report! Also, a lot of stored lists will never be used in tournaments, I am sure a lot lf people have a their account full of lists, but haven't used all of them. Because all of it, even if CB can check all that data, I don't think they even bother to analyze it because it is not really relevant

    Lastly. The differences between one and the other results came mostly from the time span they got, and the "data cooking" (not sure in english how is called, is the statistics adaptation). I think both results should be looked into and analyzed in their context, CB's might be more reliable in its smaller time span, and looked raw to me, but the user's one (don't remember the nickname, sorry), had much more info instead, and we had both raw and cooked results
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we have much to gain by delving too deep in old statistics or stuff, but a lot of those problems you list are solved. Storage isn't much of an issue unless you make it one, the OTM being unreliable in the public facing interface shouldn't be a problem for CB (e.g. if I can get the correct list to show when my TO can't, CB should be able to collect the correct list from raw data), and so on.
    Big data analysis is a profession for a reason.

    In either case, the stats were a thing, and they couldn't pin point details about specific units or mechanics, but did confirm both that the community wasn't too bad at identifying the ailing and overperforming factions as well as the community being fairly good att exaggerating the differences between the ailing and overperforming factions. As humans are wont to do.
     
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  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Storage might not be an issue if they are the ones hosting the DDBB, but I don't recall they showing any big server when visiting the company. Usually hosting is contracted to 3rd parties, and in those cases, it could have limit. I don't know how much value all the lists stored in the users account could have, but I am sure that only reported lists can be checked for the win/loss ratio, because logical reasons: is impossible to know which lists a player used if he doesn't upload it to the tournament, and cannot know who won/lose if the TO don't upload the results. Those are more limitations than problems

    More than they couldn't, I think CB decided not to share the info, if they decided to obtain it.

    But whell, the data showed that the comunity got ir right to some factions, and wrong for others, and the same for some units
     
  20. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt Well-Known Member

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    RE: Pitcher Launched Deployable Repeaters

    Possible idea: Introduce a ZoC impact template for said pieces which would allow an ARO by models in which the repeater is fired near targeting the repeater and (specifically not hacking through the repeater). Basically making it like a situation akin to Smoke grenades whereby a situation of - Fire into ZoC and risk the the opponent shooting the repeater or dodging out of the repeater range (and subsequently using said repeater in their active turn to target repeater owners). While still posing a threat if you carelessly walk/dodge/guts into it.
     
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