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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, my comment was directed to ~10 first pages of the thread, I did not endure the whole thing, so it was not about your discussion above. Please accept my apologies if it looked like a personal attack.

    As for the feedback, if you're collecting it at all, it is very important to get positive feedback, too. Positive feedback is as valid as negative, but naturally, negative feedback is more visible. No doubt that unhappy people tend to complain publicly more than happy people tend to thank :-)

    But I generally don't think feedback should be the main base for decision making. CB has more information than any individual player, they have army builder stats, ITS data and last but not the least, sales numbers. They also have warcors who represent many local communities around the world. And, as sad as it may sound, CB has to keep in mind all or at least the bulk of playerbase in mind, not just hardcore die-hards on the forums. My local community, for example, is very big, bit it's very under-represented here (or WGC, by the way). At the same time it's very active, it buys Infinity releases like the hot cakes, and while discussing the game, many opinions differ greatly from some of the popular threads here. And even there, some people were concerned with Grenz sniper, some were losing their mind over Durok, and some were just fine.

    Personally, I trust CB in their direction of the game, and don't think their confidence is unearned. From what I see, they have an established and unique product they constantly evolve and expand. And the community is not stagnating despite the tough situation in the world. I see that Infinity is a successful game, and, judging by the long history, it's successful business too. In my book, CB earned their praise and keep earning it.

    Having a "hugbox" is super cool, too. Sorry for being blunt, but devs don't have to directly engage with us. Most likely it would not affect them as business if they stop. And if there is platform where the environment is friendly and we can talk without stress, offense and calling the design choices we don't like "degenerate" at the cost of not being toxic - cool. Being toxic is okay too, I'm not preaching here, but please understand that if the thread or platform is turned into troll pit with bunch of exaggerated and overly emotional opinion thrown around it most likely reduces the willingness of the staff to engage there. And in the end, we lose the ability to directly talk to the developers (which is pretty valuable IMO) at the cost of "freely expressing ourselves".

    Does it all mean CB are flawless and we should not criticize? Surely no. But looks like they're making much more right calls than the wrong ones :-) As for the "entitled" criticisms, it does not matter what I think tbh. CB maintain these forums, and it's okay to share feedback. But it's also okay for others share theirs, right? And my feedback that in Infinity, just like in any other game, a big part of core players would lose their mind about some new hot "OP", "broken" or "unhelathy" stuff based on their personal experience or idea that they know better. Then some time passes, and they move on on the new stuff (not realizing that the game is actually always fresh for them and they have something to discuss, which is a good thing!) And that, in my opinion, is entitled, because in such case, a person takes a narrow approach (which is subjectively valid, by all means) and pushes it as hard as possible, often ignoring the bigger picture. I often see it here on forums, and IMO THAT is not healthy, that's why I said I'd rather have devs taking such feedback with a grain of salt.

    Cheers.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @SubOctavian The fact that you were calling complaints "entitled" tells me what I need to know about your outlook. You don't understand why a hugbox is a bad thing - it's great if you're part of the circlejerk, but it also means that the people who have to make decisions don't understand who they're actually selling to. I saw that wreck White Wolf and it could definitely cause problems here.

    Back in N3 we saw people saying "Hey, OSS/Tohaa is overpowered" and the usual suspects were like "psssh, CB balances things perfectly, you fool!"

    Then someone scrapes the tournament data and, surprise surprise, those factions are top of the heap.
     
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  3. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    You're jumping on the judgement too fast, mate, and assigning me a "circlejerk member" title simply because I disagree with _some_ of the points you support does not contribute to the discussion, too. In fact, it is a typical behavior of a toxic entitled troll, but I hope it's a simple misunderstanding or inability to read. Anyways, if you want to pursue that path, I will have to stop the conversation.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, I'm saying that you're not entering this in good faith because you don't allow for criticism of Infinity without saying that someone is "entitled." You think that by discussing what's not ideal with the game I'm attacking CB, and you're arguing in their defense. This isn't about CB's worth as an entity, it's about the current state of the game and its balance. Your white knighting isn't necessary. What do you think about the situation? And "CB is just and good and has put in more work than their customers deserve" is both wrongheaded and doesn't answer the question.
     
    #724 Hecaton, Mar 18, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  5. SpectralOwl

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    I'd disagree with the claim of entitlement, but not the rest of the point. Some of us have a tendency for hyperbolic language, but if we're not having fun or feel like we're not represented it's not overreaching to ask for change or suggest alternatives- this is how most *countries* are run, it's surely good enough for a wargame. The positive is just as important though, since you need both sides to make an effective debate and sometimes those positive arguments turn out to be quite strong.
     
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  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Why is part lf the problem? Isolation is a good way to deal with a hacker while at the same time has been nerfed from the previous edition. Is strong in hacking, for sure, but isolation doesn't cripple as much as killing (the unit retains the order for itself, can use extra orders if avaiable, like TAGs, can deffend itself and can take out itself the status, even if low chances). If CB were to boost carbonite... HI players would make a bigger ruckus than now (and it has been buffed from n3, now the reset has malus!). If Trinity becomes too reliable l, we return to n3 were khd were the most used hacking devices, and they are the cheapest!. If we boost both carbonita and trinity, hacking becomes too impactful. And nerfing isolation would benefit mainly the few BTS9 hackable units (not only hackers).

    The more I think about the new hacking, the more I think they did a better job than n3. But things like marked status remaining on after the turn, and the order count limit seems to me that bent to some degree all of the effect of pitchers in some tables.

    And also I see some percepción problems. People that lost a few games in n3 because some lucky hacker (and not only against nomads, but in general), saw hacking as powerful. I am sure not many of those people have ever tryed to run a list that used hacking as a main tool to compensate other lacking parts. I tryed a lot in n3 (for example as a way to deal with TO/ODD HI when not having enough MSV or fire after doing 2 tournament in a row against avatar/achiles/achiles, but not only that case), and that's why I came to the conclusion that hacking was not working. Some people accepted that hacking only worked in aro to some degree, to support remotes, and to kill hackers, whithout looking that it also needed some expenditure in active turn and a lot in points. Some of those decided that was the intended way, but when talking to alternatives to deal with certain enemis, the main suggestion I saw has hacking. But hacking in aro, a good player had it easier than some will admit thanks to the various perks of n3 reset, the bigger amount of stealthed units, and a lot of tables make not so difficult to shot a repeater from a safe point (a hacking list has not so many troopers to deffend ir because the focus on hacking itself

    I admit that because I tried a lot, and sometimes with too much investment, my perception might be also biased, but the times I've had to spend several orders to put pitchers at 15s or 16s and failed, the times that i needed more than 3 orders to hack, or the times I saw how after some succesfull hacking were rendered to nothing were much more than some people got their HI hacked. I mean, i don't talk about a few unlucky games, but a lot of games in different editions of the ITS. Also, some the people that talk about the big repeater network that covers the enemy's half of the table while at the same time maintaining a high shotty list, when asked to do a list that could do it, allways say "see? This list can" but the list they put as an example, has a lot missing of the things themselves said before creating the list. And I think that's because mixing memories of different lists
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Remember that nomads and TJC were receiving the same treatment from the cominity, but when results were seen, they were mid-table, and a lot of people still negate them.

    What I mean with this, is that a lot of people have an idea that will not change even when they have data in front of them
     
    #727 Armihaul, Mar 18, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Well, an infusión of Yungas leaves is just the thing to cure a soroche, so some use there...
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My memory of the situation is a bit different from yours. TJC was received over-all negatively by the Nomad forums from what I can remember, but performance was somewhat better than expected. The only faction that performed greatly outside expectations was Caledonia, from what I can remember. Indeed when I go back and look at the graphs, Nomads scored pretty average and TJC barely under average.
    Then again, I don't know what VaulSC's community rated at the time, which I think is one of few tier lists that's active.

    A faction's over-all performance is not an indicator of whether it has broken interactions or not. A faction can theoretically be trash, but be held afloat by singular mechanics that's strong and/or annoying that it is harming the fun of playing. E.g. N3 Kamau snipers were probably not the strongest reason why Varuna stood out so much in the stats, but I'd argue it was by far the least fun mechanic to face that all Varuna lists employed.
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    In the nomad forum there were a lot if discrepancies. Some thought were good, some thought otherwise. But if you check outside the nomad forums you will find a lot of "tjc is top" comments. Even in this thread you can see it.

    I agree that on the mechanics and overall performance might not be tied comment, and I think they need different ways to approach them.
     
  11. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    I think just about the only common consensus I've seen for N4 Nomads is that Bakunin needs help.
     
  12. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Bakunin is perfectly fine with Riot Girls in cheap fireteams and Prowlers on top of everything that was good in N3 (Morlocks, Zeros, Uberfall)
    Observance units are still crap but every faction have their weaker/unpickable units
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yep, I remember lots of comments about how Tunguska was no good, or was only good for limited insertion. Of course, I’ve long disagreed with (and still disagree with) the very vocal crowd who push the idea that the only correct way to build lists is to maximize your order count.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure. But positivity just doesn't get the same amount of engagement, because it doesn't create the situation where people who identify with CB feel attacked by a criticism of the work they put out and feel a need to defend it. I posted a thread about how the crit change in N4 was good and why and got like four replies.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They were definitely not.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    See, this is why I don't take your ideas seriously. Oblivion has been massively *buffed* since N3.
     
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  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Oblivion was buffed. Isolation was nerfed. Not much, but still.
     
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  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The problem is that there is only one superior program that makes all other programs irrelevant, and if you can't see why invalidation other options is bad or why this has a very negative impact on the internal balance of hacking you probably shouldn't be in this thread. As its basically the Redrum problem, which was probably the main issue with n3 hacking, Redrum was too good to the point of warping the entire ecosystem around it and invalidating all other options. Hacking is supposed to be about picking right tool for the right job but as it stands you have a sledgehammer (oblivion) and couple of water balloons (Trinity and Carbonite) so you just pick one tool every time regardless of target because why the fuck bother with anything else.


    Now as for your other assertions;

    How is carbonite buffed? a reset mod means a whole lot of fuck all if you can't stick the program to begin with, additionally a lot of the HI players I know would much prefer their HI get Imm'd with a -3 than Iso'd with a -9 as oblivion is basically a kill program for everything in the game. honestly carbonite needs a point damage bump, it's still going to bounce off of BTS 6+ targets a lot of the time but at least it has a chance at doing so as opposed to being a worthless waste of rules text.

    No, if we got Redrum we would be back at N3 hacking, the KHD was fine right up until you got to that stupid program, you had trinity (Which was dam 16 and shock by the way on top of everything else) for low BTS chaff and Skullbuster for the Hard targets, and without Redrum in picture crowding them both out it was relatively balanced (Played a bunch of games where I refused to use redrum and it worked great), even with the changes N4 made to hacking such as no longer ignoring firewalls having access to those programs would go a long way to improving the game and make TAGs and HI more viable as you have a means to protect them from enemy hackers as well as lessen the impact of guided.

    Though on Skullbuster and trinity, I would leave trinity as it is (B3 dam 14 Normal) with the exception of removing the plus 3 mod, and bring in skulbuster pretty much as it was but maybe knock a point or two of damage off of it (+3 B2, Dam 14-15 AP)

    Don't nerf ISO, you nerf Oblivion, and primarily by busting back to B1 instead of B2. Oblivion is kind of cancerous at the moment as not only does it invalidate other hacking programs it also invalidates entire models and playstyles (such as HI LT's).

    No, they took a single assault hacker, it got it's brains blown out and decided to dumpster the whjole mechanic instead of thinking "maybe I Should build some redundency in my lists and bring a KHD or two to clear the way to make it safe or another assault hacker as back up". Its like not doing something about a mine and running a skirmisher into it then crying about how mines ruin the game and skirmishers are dead as a unit type.

    A lot of my lists especially in late N3 tended to lean hard on hacking to deal with problems on the table to great success. but this is an argument we have had repeatedly over the course of the last few years in the nomad forums, and its pretty much not something I doubt we will ever really see eye to eye on.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I do actually think hacking programs need an active turn advantage over the same program in the reactive turn. Risks promoting an inactive playstyle otherwise...
     
  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Just to assuage my confusion - is this 'Bakunin needs help', or 'the Observance portion of Bakunin needs help?'
     
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