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Is the intent of the Symbiomate to grant Immunity (Total) against Hacking Programs?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by meikyoushisui, Oct 22, 2020.

  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I believe that the intent of the rule in N4, with the new addition of immunity to Comms Attacks, is that a Symbiomate grants Immunity to things like Jammers. This works fine, since the Jammer has a Trait that causes a state (in this case, STATE:ISOLATED), hitting one activation condition of Immunity (Total).

    Things get a little hazier with Hacking Programs though, which is the main question of my post. Is the intent of the new Symbiomate rule to grant Immunity (Total) against Hacking Programs?



    Everything below this line is just analysis of the wording of the rules. I did my best to organize it, but it's all peripheral information to the question.

    ====================================================
    Symbiomates now apply to Comms Attacks. The wording of the rest of the rule has not changed significantly in N4 except for that aspect. In N3, it was ruled that the Symbiomate grants Total Immunity until something forces it to make a save that it would still have to make with TI. (For example, a trooper with a post-rework Symbiomate in N3 could walk through a Flash Pulse without losing the Symbiomate because a Flash Pulse did not trigger an ARM/BTS roll against a Trooper with TI).

    Key Question: What are hacking programs?

    The remember box on Page 43 lists them separately from Special Skills and Equipment:
    Certain types of Ammunition, Attacks, Equipment, Hacking Programs, etc. force the target to make more than one Saving Roll for each success in the Attack Roll

    The Comms Attack trait says that:
    The use of this weapon, Special Skill, or piece of Equipment is considered an Attack that cannot be avoided with the Dodge Special Short Skill, but instead with the Reset Short Skill. Partial Cover has no effect on Weapons, Special Skills or pieces of Equipment possessing this Trait

    The Impersonation rule distinguishes between Special Skills and Hacking Programs, and the Isolated State differentiates Hacking Programs from Skills and Equipment with the Comms Attack / Comms Equipment traits (though the latter may be because not all Hacking Programs are Comms Attacks.)

    What are the implications of this?
    If we are to reason deductively based only on what is written (which we absolutely SHOULD NOT do, I am just explaining the line of reasoning), this means that Hacking Attacks are weapons, because they're not Skills, and they're not Equipment, and anything with the Comms Attack trait is one of those three things. This would mean since non-lethal hacking programs are Weapons with the Non-Lethal trait, they hit an activation condition of Immunity (Total). I don't think this is true though, since the rules don't explicitly call out Hacking Programs as weapons, only doing so implicitly. And they also implicitly categorize them as not weapons, since obviously hacking programs don't show up on Weapons charts.


    Here's why this is important:
    If Hacking Programs are weapons, then Immunity (Total) granted by a Symbiomate applies against non-lethal hacking programs, such as Oblivion. If they are not weapons, then the Comms Attack rule should be updated to show that "weapon, Special Skill, or piece of Equipment" isn't an exhaustive list. If the Symbiomate is intended to give immunity to Hacking Programs and Hacking Programs are meant to be Comms Attack, then both rules need to be fixed, with Symbiomate giving an explicit call-out to Non-Lethal Hacking Programs and the Comms Attack wording regarded what things are Comms Attacks being updated.
    ====================================================

    PS: Along the way, I found out that there currently isn't anything preventing a Trooper who has been assigned Equipment with the Assignable trait from entering a Marker form. The only check occurs at deployment. I don't know if this is intended or not, but I am assuming not.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure whether that line refers to Total Immunity, it may just be limited to granting BTS 9 against that Oblivion/Jammer attack.
     
  3. WillJoeBeck

    WillJoeBeck Member

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    I'm really confused.

    I think that you just get the benefits of 9 ARM / BTS vs comms against with symbiomates.

    Which is pretty depressing considering if you get hit by Spotlight you lose your symbiomate and don't even get to make use of it.
     
  4. Ashtroboy

    Ashtroboy Active Member

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    The wording is “When a trooper with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack - or is affected by any weapon or rule that requires any saving roll - she will ....”

    I think you would have to use the symbiomate against the jammer and lose it after that order. But I’m just going from my reading of the game examples in the annex which annoyingly are multi attack examples, but the lines “If the sakiel had suffered a successful attack with a weapon loaded with Para ammunition, and with the Non-Lethat trait, he will not make the saving throw , thanks to immunity total special skill. However , his player must remove the SymbioMate from the game table at the end of that order”

    This seems to imply that even nonlethal attacks cause the SymbioMate to be expended, however as it’s in the annex I assume it may get changed when Tohaa get updated
     
    Methuselah likes this.
  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The symbiomate is expended because the user benefited from its protection. It’s supposed to be a one-time buff.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I feel like in N3 the same wording was ruled that the possessor of the Symbiomate permanently had TI until it was hit by something that would cause ARM/BTS rolls even with TI.
     
  7. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I honestly don’t remember what the N3 rule was.
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I just double checked, it was added in FAQ 1.7. It's the second FAQ question on this page.

    I guess this would be a reversal of that ruling despite the phrasing of the rule not changing.
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    @ijw
    Is the intent really to reverse the N3 ruling? Is a model supposed to lose a Symbiomate to a stiff breeze?
     
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  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    @ijw we never heard back from you on this, comment please? :)
     
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  11. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    I think the explanation given at the end of SymbioMate Game Example 2 is pretty clear.

    "If the Sakiel had suffered a successful Attack with a weapon loaded with PARA Ammunition, and with the Non-Lethal Trait, he will not make the Saving Roll, thanks to the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. However, his player must remove the SymbioMate from the game table at the end of that Order."

    If a unit with a SymbioMate is hit with a weapon or ammunition with the Non-Lethal trait, they are immune to its effects, but they would lose the SymbioMate at the end of that order.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is unquestioningly so, and wasn't what was debated. Total Immunity makes the user immune to the effects of PARA Ammo.

    Here's the offending rules text:
    In addition, the SymbioMate is also used and applied against Comms Attacks.
    Now, Immunity (Total) doesn't work against Comms Attacks according to the rules for Immunity, but what people are asking is whether the above line is sufficient to over-rule that "vulnerability" or whether the above line means you only get BTS 9 versus e.g. Carbonite - but still get IMM-B if you fail that save.
    On the balance of things, I'd personally play it's the latter until clarified otherwise, as the text doesn't explicitly present itself as an exception to any rule.
     
  13. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori

    That seems pretty easy too doesn't it? SymbioMates are used and applied against Comms Attacks, so you would get BTS9 and Immunity (Total) against a hacking attack. However, Immunity (Total) does not apply against Comms Attacks, so you would have BTS9 against Carbonite, but if you failed it, you would still be susceptible to IMM-B as Immunity (Total) does not apply.

    SymbioMates can be applied to Comms Attacks and grants ARM & BTS 9 and Immunity (Total), but nothing in the wording for SymbioMates changes how Immunity (Total) works.
     
  14. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    Yes, in N3 Mate was not removed from Non-lethal hits, & Yes, it intentionaly changed & clearly stated in N4 rules
     
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  15. Dev

    Dev New Member

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    Up.
    So how does symbio mate works vs Spotlight?
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You can't activate/use SymbioMates vs Spotlight at all. See the requirements for SymbioMate, with added underline emphasis:

    The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attackor being affected by any weapon or rule that requires a Saving Roll.
     
  17. Dev

    Dev New Member

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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Considering that I answered this myself and by simply reading the rules, let's see if someone disagrees with me or if a known CB employee agrees before I mark it off as answered ;)
     
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  19. Dev

    Dev New Member

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    In N4 annex it is written differently:
    REQUIREMENTS
    ► The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack—or being
    affected by any weapon or rule that requires a Saving Roll.

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think the question in the unresolved list is about the symbiomate's interactions with other hacking attacks (which do require saving rolls), isn't it?
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
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