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Is RTF going to be weak?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by LoganGarnett, May 22, 2018.

  1. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is very early to judge, but I just can't help to not think it's going to be that way.
    It seems to be sectorial with many expensive and squishy and a few of even more expensive, but at least well-protected units.
    We got our standard Ghulam, which everyone gets.
    We got Naffatun, which is really cool..
    But then there is an expensive unit with only one or two viable loadouts (Zhayedan), and a bit less expensive Super-Jumper with only 1 SWC weapon (Khawarij), both of which are no better at surviving incoming fire than Ghulam.
    We got another pricey unit, but now with TO and, apart from WIP, really unimpressive stats..
    A Khawarij link+Tarik was a selling point for me, but now I just think of it as of a Tarik+really expensive fragile Cheerleaders.
    So far we got no MSV or regular camo, only 1 pricey source of smoke, only 2 hacker options and, apart from Tarik, 2 outstanding doctors or Maggie, nothing nothing impressive overall.

    There also was a hope for new Super soldiers.. but we got Hakims. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE them, but not exactly super soldiers we were looking for.

    Am I missing something crucial? Please tell me that I'm wrong.
     
  2. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    About a year to 18 months, plus the associated extra units that will probably come...
     
  3. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Well, Bostria talked about Fireteam priviledges which is a little vague, but that can be a very powerful one, if done correct.
    And also two good units of Supersoldiers can make a very big difference when it comes to the powerlevel.

    The expensive source of Smoke you were talking about, is also a very good HI thats surviveable, has a weapon for every rangeband up to 32", can speculative shoot Grenades without costing more SWC, has Mines and Minelayer to protect itself or others and cant be surprise attacked. If you want smoke, then yes its expensive, but you also get a toolboxy HMG wielder...which is pretty rare.

    The Khawarij are likely to get a HRL (at least I hope so because of the dossier shown), which will be very powerful with Link bonuses and Superjump.

    Hacker options can be added to existing units or maybe its a defining feature of RTF to focus more on bioengineering than on cyberwarfare.

    I agree, till now we have some spots to be filled in the Sectorial, but until its fully released, I wouldnt care to much about the powerlevel, because we cannot tell, when so much is still unknwon. It definitely seems, that its going to be an expensive Sectorial, thats true. So the 18 Order Lists wont be doable with it. But thats good, because Haqq does it already with its 3 playable Armys.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I was going to post something on the matter, but OP was first. Still, I would like to contribute.

    I’ve been thinking about collecting RTF in addition to HB collection I have – not a hard call as we already have Operation: Adjective Noun + Beyond starter and some spiffy boxes of recent sculpting. In fact, I’ve already started to get relevant models.

    As I was doing so, however, I’ve realized that as it is now, RTF is going to have some significant flaws that we will have to play around in some ways unless we’re getting some new units exactly to cover those problems.

    What I mean is that RTF has some nice pieces, but also lack typical complimentary tools that truly enable those pieces. One can say that this is what Vanilla is for, but that still leaves RTF players with problems to solve… Or just get by somehow.

    In addition to what OP posted (being expensive and fragile is what concerns me the most), here are things I’ve noticed:

    1) RTF are getting the majority of cubed 2W models, but at this point it’s unlikely that we are going to get any Akbars. Already having several special docs on top of standard Ghulam ones in sectorial makes it unlikely to get even more of them.

    2) Apparently, Saladin is going to be a part of RTF. Which is nice, but RTF doesn’t have what it takes to safeguard an obvious Lt like that. There are no Holo1s and no CoCs. We will have to figure something out on how to defend against headshots. Sure, from mechanical standpoint we will likely have Zhayedans, but taken in numbers that can ensure half-normal functioning of your army they are expensive and fragile for their price.
    If anything, that’s the biggest issue because the previous bullet elicits no other reaction than “Well, ok”, whereas others are definitely way lesser issues. This one, on the other hand, requires a solution.

    3) Less of an issue since a lot of armies have to work in similar conditions. Still not something I’d call normal for Haqq. RTF have access to HD and AD troops with (apparently) no means to mask their presence. Whereas HB and Vanilla can use Holo1 (presenting Hafzas as something more expensive) or Camo (Farzan minelayer + rifle Ragik is the same cost and same appearance on the table as Farzan FO + Farzan CoC, for example) to make it look like there are more points on the table than there really is, RTF will apparently be bloody honest about their “reserves”. But at least your opponent will not know everything still. While QK is as obvious, their AD units are more like infiltrating warbands and irregulars, priced appropriately and not relying on opponent leaving you an opening in order to perform some of their more important functions.

    4) Another minor one is that RTF is a sectorial with our main TAG, but it’s pretty conservative about what it can offer for its support, having Leila as our only KHD (if even that) and lacking in repeater coverage. But we still have REMs and our Najjaruns are probably better than PanO’s poor Machinist who still manages to keep Superpower’s war cogs oiled somehow, so there’s that. Caveat though: no rerolls on failed repair attempts here.

    5) Long-ranged firepower seems to be an issue. We have links, a couple of fatties and a couple of opportunistic gunfighters to do the job. Let’s have a look:

    - We are almost guaranteed to see Ghulam and Naffatun infantry core members. While Cores offer impressive firepower most of the time, at range these guys are just that - line infantry in a link. Fancy HFTs and grenades will not plug a hole in our general purpose gunfighting, leaving us with bog standard Ghulam HMG.

    - Leila (if she's in) will contribute MMR, so at least there's that. Still, she's more of a medium range fighter.

    - Zhayedans are theorized to be RTF's another Core, and possible candidates to be able to participate in mixed links. Let's be honest here: Zhayedan HMG is not a great value over Ghulam HMG for way more points. Their "real" profiles are Breaker and Sniper, ones that hit things in cover on 18-. The first one has great damage potential, but they work up to 16'. Snipers are finally what we're looking for (sorta), but being limited to B3 and shock ammo, they are not going to solve everything for you.

    - Khwarijis are likely to have at least Haris, but their rangebands are more in medium range for now.

    - Fatties: Maggy and Fasid HMG. Those are our stronger and more survivable HMGs, limited in brute force role by them having only BS13/14 and noting more going for them in F2F rolls. Yes, I did say that the unit that offers nothing but brute force (Maggy) is limited in that, but issues with MBTs are nothing new, those are gunfighting platforms that have hard time (by active turn's standards of order efficiency, that is) even against linked cheerleaders with right guns. Fasid is no different, but his BS is even lower and he doesn't have MOV going for him. Sure, he has nice toolbox, but that's another topic.

    So, that's it for now. In closing, RTF gives me a vibe of sectorial that lacks some synergy between certain ideas it exemplifies and things that could support that. I'm not including more theorycrafting on things that are on some people's wishlists like MSV2 or Tarik Haris, but funny enough those things will have similar flaw of not making the most out of units' potential (case in point, limited access to smoke and being unable to benefit from 6-4 MOV / Impetuous* on a unit that relies on outmaneuvering opponents in order to shoot them, respectively).

    * - well, at least he won't be giving MMS2 to every enemy he faces; sounds like a fair** tradeoff.
    ** - as much as your opponent will be willing to call anything with Fat2 and B5 "fair", no matter what calculator says :P
     
    #4 Barrogh, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  5. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget that its possible Djan's, and Janissary could play a part in the army. Those units don't "belong" to the Qapu Khalqi, they are just utilized in the army heavily. We could have some cross pollination.
     
  6. SapperBolt

    SapperBolt New Member

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    I get 'shook' every time I see a rough estimate to the release date of RTF. I bought Red Veil on the promise of RTF and I am still waiting.

    Those super soldiers better be really impressive because otherwise this wait will have been for a whole lot of nothing.

    :(
     
  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Don't be of little faith, o brothers.

    RTF is still far away, and we still don't know what exactly will be present in it. No RTF army list has been published so far (to my knowledge) so you can't really say what is and what isn't there.
    We do know several units that are going to be present, true, but by no means can we say a given troop type, ability or equipment is going to be missing!

    Once again, I call you to excercise the virtue of patience...
     
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  8. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Some holes can also be filled by new or existing mercs to push RTF ahead without improving vanilla QK.
     
  9. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    See the following from another thread regarding at least the Janissaries.:

     
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  10. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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    Watch them bring in a doped up guy with the movement of a Mobility Su Jian

     
  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    It sounds like the new wave of Sectorials are going to start including new weapons and loadouts. We saw that in JSA already with the new MULTI Marksman Rifle, and that wasn't even a proper new Sectorial. It's already been hinted that Tunguska is getting new equipment as well.

    Project that a year down the road, and we may see units, rules, etc. that heavily change the landscape of the game. I'm sure many of those will be a benefit to RTF.
     
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  12. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    I don't recall the charts from the info panels they've been running at the cons. What do we have, 2 or 3 major releases left his year?

    edit: "We" meaning Infinity in general, not Haqq specifically.
     
  13. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    c2YQGGk.png
     
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  14. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    @emperorsaistone Thanks! So assuming the N floating over May was for Tunguska, that means we've got 2 left, Gencon and whatever happens in November. So do we think RTF might be a possibility for November? Truth be told, from a model/concept perspective, it was Tarik and the Khawarij that drew me to Haqq for a second faction, so I'm pretty pumped for them to get a sectorial.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Gencon is apparently going to be a double bill, so three releases left.
     
  16. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    It would seem due to some releases that RTF is possible for November. But after rewatching some of the latest seminars, I came to the conclusion that its very unlikely. 3 Armies were confirmed and that were Varuna, Tunguska and Vedic. Tunguska is in May/June. The next release is almost certainly a 2 player Starterbox and its almost impossible that something from PanO will be in there, which means November for Varuna. These are of course only deductions from my part and therfore prone to beeing false, if CB decides to do otherwise.
     
  17. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that update, I did not know they were not planning on doing cross overs between sectorials...which means they have more work cut out for them.
     
  18. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    It will be about as weak as the player fielding them.
     
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  19. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    At least... That's what seems to be the rumor at the time. They may very well change their minds.

    Indeed, but which would be weaker I wonder, between RTF and some other subsection of models, when fielded by the same player?
     
  20. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Naturally. Until said player gathers adequate experience with them.

    My first army was QK. And I was chewing bubblegum and kickin' ass with it in the loacal meta.
    Then I decided to branch over into Corregidor - and suddenly I was the one with ass being kicked. Until I gained sufficent experience.
     
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