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Is JSA Made to Go Second?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by EpicDiceFail, May 22, 2019.

  1. EpicDiceFail

    EpicDiceFail Patron Saint of Horrible Dice

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    Getting back into Infinity after a year long hiatus and I'll probably be either going back to JSA or Invicible Army.

    After catching up on some JSA threads, which have been great and educational, I'm starting to to think that maybe JSA was meant for turn 2. Maybe in not most missions, but I got to wonder with all the infiltration/assassination and mid-field action, would it not be best to go 2nd? Yeah I understand that JSA isn't the most durable of factions nor great at the long game. It just seems to me that you can put yourself into a better position by letting your opponent come to you and over commit to setup that ninja backstabbing JSA is soooooo good at.

    Or maybe I'm nuts....:smiley:
     
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  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    You want to go first because of Kitsune and Oniwabans.
    You want to go first because you don't have a solid ARO response.
    But you want to go second because you have A LOT LESS of field to cross to cut through your enemies. If you master this philosophy, you can do almost everything.

    Remember that in some missions this does not pay. And it can be tricky when it is time to choose Deployment/Initiative. You could end deploying first and going second, and this is very very very bad...
     
  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I am going to choose Initiative in almost every mission as JSA, except ones that have scoring that heavily favors going second and I am playing against an army where I expect weaker than normal active turn strength. JSA's strongest pieces are primarily alpha-strikers or punish bad deployment (Oniwaban and Yojimbo) and JSA's reactive turn presence is much stronger when given a turn to put Ryukens into places where they can be the most effective.
     
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  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    There's a lot of variable factors if you want to go second or not. What is your list running? what army is the opponent playing? what mission are you playing?

    An alpha strike is only going to be effective as your opponents lets it. Learning when to Banzai and when you to reserve yourself is key to winning with JSA
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    @EpicDiceFail
    I much prefer going second with JSA.

    I think the notion of Turn 1 Alpha Strike with JSA is an artifact of the past. Deployment Zone defense has gotten a lot better in the last 18 months of releases... Proliferation of Minelayers, Jammers, template-equipped link teams, minelayers, linked MSV2 means that cracking an opponent's castled Deployment Zone is a much bigger risk now than it was before.

    Additionally, you're taking a big gamble rolling for Superior Infiltration. There are times when it's great, but those times usually rely on your opponent making a mistake in their Deployment. In the 6 months that I played JSA in 2018, I saw maybe two or three times where I was willing to take the risk with Superior Infiltration. One was to take down an MSV2 Haris team on a rooftop that could only be accessed via Superior Infiltration (the alternative was at least 3 Orders spent Climbing... This was a really tall building.) The other opportunity was during Highly Classified, when 2 mission-critical Specialists who were left undefended.

    In the remaining ~30 games I played in that time period where I had a Sup Infiltrator in my list, Superior Infiltration never seemed like a smart tactic to me. I was much happier letting my enemies disrupt their own defense, spend orders walking out of their own DZ, and advancing into the midfield where they have less defense, less overlapping support, and I don't have to risk a Sup Infiltration roll. Best case scenario too, you can anticipate the areas of the midfield where an opponent will focus their units, and you can deploy near those areas via Standard Deployment and only have to spend 2-3 Orders to initiate combat.

    JSA TO units are incredibly order hungry, and too expensive to risk or throw away. The more than you can do to let the enemy come to them, the better the results they will deliver.

    With Ryuken-9 and Yojimbo in every list, and with their LTs either hiding in a huge pile of Keitotsu are wearing power armor with 6th Sense Leevl 2, JSA has above-average Turn 1 defense. They should be able too weather most opponent's first turn, and be ready to swing back hard.
     
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  6. EpicDiceFail

    EpicDiceFail Patron Saint of Horrible Dice

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    This is exactly what I'm thinking! I started playing JSA prior to Uprising, before my hiatus from Infinity I felt like my games were better going 2nd.
    Just like you say, let them advance mid field.

    I never felt that confident in the Keitotsu link, so I never fielded them. I think I'll start using them now.
     
  7. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Doing midfield hidden deployment and going second seems very questionable to me. Maybe your meta does not make use of Sensor but in my meta it's in most lists and actively used.
     
  8. EpicDiceFail

    EpicDiceFail Patron Saint of Horrible Dice

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    Risky if deploying first, but if deploying second, you should be able to deploy around the sensors....if you have have a mind for tactics...:sunglasses:
    If they want to waste tons of activation on looking for my needle in the haystack....by all means.
     
  9. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    They just sensor the area they want to go to, if you are far away from that you are not going to be doing anything useful anyway.
     
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  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Some armies can sensor really efficiently. Coordinated order move + sniffer can get you a sensor area covering about 50% of where superior infiltration can go in an army with 2 sensor bots. ISS can start with a sniffer already 20 inches up the board and placed. TAK has a 6-6 camo sensor that starts 20 inches up the board as well. The sensor bot in Ramah has a Red Fury so you might be spending orders on it anyway.

    Sensor is wildly underused in most metas, even if it gets taken frequently.
     
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  11. neostrider

    neostrider Well-Known Member

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    I find my meta can focus my killers down if I don't strike first. Our match ups seem easily countered if we are not active player.

    Sensor + msv2 takes a lot of punch out of jsa. Karakuri are most effective vs B 1or2 ARO which will never hit hard. Reactive turn a B4 hmg or linked anything can shred them efficiently.

    Domaru and Shikami want to control how they engage. No opponent will walk into melee or 8" range without knowing they'll win the fight.

    Daiyokai on suppressive could work if you had the turn to suppress and watched his back. Not really Going Second safe.

    Ryuken look good on paper, but unless I'm pumping orders into them to keep them mining and repositioned they will eventually be outranged or flanked.

    I've had success going second, but it usually was a well dug in waiting for a delayed Going First turn. Too much of the roster can melt when focused and I think our biggest power is to break their swords before they cut
     
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  12. Desolad0r

    Desolad0r Member

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    But, going second, who put in ARO rol?

    HRL Keisotsu seems good, but the MMSR Kempei is better in active.
    HRL Tanko? I don't put them in all list.
    Ryuken? I don't field the HRL frecuently and the SMG needs the turn to get Supresive Fire.

    Maybe we have to not Aro things until thats things are in our midtable?
     
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