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Is it just me? Red Veil The Lop Sided Blunder.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Azuset, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I am about to sit down and play the 9th mission in the Red Veil Beyond expansion.

    I have been pracitcing with the Yu Jing for all of the missions. This is because I will be playing them as my main army when im a big boy and have spent my 10,000 hours learning this system. ;)

    Yup, we are noobs isolated from the world trying to learn Infinity without a mentor. We make mistakes. I have been the one learning them and teaching them to my friend. I aspire to one day become a warcor and host events in my area. I have had a lot of support from the forums with learning the game. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to answer my questions. There are so many. The rules are not very clear for special situations.

    Now, is it just me or is Red Veil not balanced at all? There are two things that I see as a HUGE disadvantage to the Yu Jing. A small map and fucking shotguns on every Haqq unit. This makes for a very poor play experience. Especially when we started upgarding gear and profiles.

    What good is that Hsien when he is always in a negative range band? Stick him on suppression fire and he just gets blow up anyway. The tiger can remove a few models if im lucky.

    I know when we have a full table to play on it will be different. But right now we are working with the starter rules.

    Is it just me? Can anyone throw me some advice?
     
  2. b1ackheart

    b1ackheart Well-Known Member

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    You are completely right Yu Jing are at a disadvantage on the A2 poster sized board. those light shotguns on the basic Haqq loadout and the smoke grenades and Antipersonnel mines from the Al Fasid definitely tip the balance of those games on the smaller table. the real advantage Yu Jing have in those models is the close combat ability of the Hsein and Ninja compared to that of anything the Haqq have, but it will even out a lot when you move t the full rules and a 4 foot table.
     
  3. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    How do your games usually play out? I played Red Veil myself when it was first released and I didn't find it to be that badly skewed.
    Some of this might be obvious to you, but I'm going to give my two cents below:

    - The Hsien is a natural counter to the Sniper Tuareg and the Al Fasid smoke grenades. You want to make sure he is at the far end of your deployment zone covering a long firelane to get the most out of his 16-32" +3 rangeband. He's also the highest base BS model on the table, so he is always a threat. If the Haqqis get too close for the HMG, don't forget he's also carrying a pistol and a Nanopulser. A direct template will be a real danger for Haqq LI and force them into a tradeoff that the Hsien has a pretty good chance of surviving with ARM 4 and W2.

    - The Zuyong has a similar durability. He is also BS 13 which is still on par/above what the Haqqis can bring. His Combi Rifle and 2 Breaker Pistols cover close to mid range very well with the option of using breaker ammo.

    - The Ninja is invaluable. The Haqqis have nothing to negate her TO:Camo and nothing to contest her CC abilities. If she gets into CC with anything, she's probably going to shred it, and with hidden deployment/marker state/infiltration she has all the tools to get there (except smoke, but you can't have everything).

    - The Tiger Soldier comes with Mimetism (which the Haqqis can't negate) and a direct template weapon. Don't feel obliged to bring her in via AD every time. It can make sense to deploy her defensively and use the flamer as a deterrent, if you feel that you get rushed too often.
    Alternatively, drop her behind enemy lines to hack the Al Fasid and/or push buttons. If you use her AD, however, a gap in the enemy deployment can wreak havoc amidst all those LI.
     
  4. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    @Knauf I must remind you that theses missions use watered down profiles. That way people and build upon there knowledge. You only get templates on mission 8 of 10.

    Whats hacking? This is the basic rules. Hehe.

    Ill reply a bit more in detail when i can.
     
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  5. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Oh, that changes things. I guess we never played it with condensed rules back then :P
     
  6. Ariwch

    Ariwch The denizen of the StateEmpire salt mine

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    I am finding your lack of socializing with Djanbazans and new Khawarijes... disturbing.
     
  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    They are not in red Veil, are they? ;)
     
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  8. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Khawarij are, but only the r+lsg ...
    Anyways, I’ve only ran through all missions once, and wasn’t a fan of condensed profiles- but the earlier assessment of the hsein and ninja are spot on.

    If you have been playing for a bit now, I would recommend taking the jump to regular profiles and keep the points per game small until you are comfortable again.
     
  9. Ariwch

    Ariwch The denizen of the StateEmpire salt mine

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    Ah, regarding those RV training missions only... well that's true than except in place of Haqq oppo I would probably use Kharijit to proxy mk12 one on the second run after dealing with Ninja :) And Hsieng is good option indeed

    But it's better to play 150 pts format with full rules as soon as you got acquainted with basic rules.
     
    #9 Ariwch, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Yeah, I second the two responses above. Even if it means learning a few additional rules from the get-go, I'd strongly suggest you play with the actual unit profiles, so you can learn to gauge at a glance what each unit can do. If you use the condensed profiles too much, you run the risk of priming yourself in a way that skews your impression of individual profiles and/or factions.
     
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  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Keep in mind too that a Combi Rifle at 0-8 at Burst 3, +3 is statistically very similar to a shotgun at 0-8, Burst 2, +6.

    Just gotta leverage that active turn, hide as best you can, and make sure those shotguns are never hitting multiple models. If you can keep the attack/defense trades at 1:1, and not 1:2 or worse, it'll limit the effectiveness of those shotguns.
     
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  12. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    This is probably very good advice. The problem is im on the last mission of Beyond Red Veil. Imagine all the poor misguided bastards out there who didnt read this forum post before playing it.
     
  13. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    This would be solid advice except for the premade map layouts and the small size of the battlefeild. There is no where to spread out to and keep models hidden.
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    The starter sets are pretty hard to balance out, especially without some of the Advanced Rules available.

    It's easier to see for Operation Icestorm where every PanO troop basically is +1 BS over their Nomad counterpart and that's the entire story already.
     
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  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    The best thing I can suggest is utilizing prone, rooftops, and corners. The lack of linear obstacles like sandbags or jersey barriers is tough... Scatter terrain is really valuable and helpful for breaking up the general power of templates.
     
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  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Alternatively you can also just plan on using these reduced rules missions to learn the game and we all know that winning isn't a good teacher, so you should be in a better spot moving into the full rules afterwards.
     
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  17. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    If you've been smashed by your opponent because of poorly balanced starter rules, they're going to be in for a shock the first game afterwards when the table size is bigger and you've got a bunch of extra abilities.

    Just make the most of that game.

    The starter boxes are about learning rules, not having a balanced campaign.
     
  18. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    It’s still fun to move the little people around and roll dice , and I think that’s the point. Just learning the basic movement, actions , stats and range bands / modifiers.

    Balance is really not an issue, but it’s good to be aware of it as you are becoming more knowledgeable. Best of luck learning all the rules lol
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Anecdotally my friends who started with the Red Veil box found the Yu Jing side more powerful due to the ninja, the second HI, and the MSV2 HMG almost hard countering the TO sniper.
     
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