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Is a manned TAG that is the Lieutenant still the Lieutenant after dismounting/destruction of the TAG

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Apr 11, 2018.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What the title says. So, if you have an O-Yoroi that's the lieutenant, and the pilot gets out, are they still the lieutenant? If the O-yoroi is knocked unconscious, and the pilot exits, are they still the lieutenant?
     
  2. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    The pilot rules are a bit wierd and need clarification. All i can say is how we do it in my zone, the pilot is still leutinent if he/she is out the tag, but if the tag gets knocked in ypur oponent active you start in lose beacuse the pilot is still inside the tag.

    The other option is to consider that only the tag have the leutinent hability.

    We chosed to follow the first option.
     
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    You would be in Loss of Lieutenant. The pilot profile is an alternate profile of the TAG trooper, and it can be accessed while that trooper is in the Unconscious state, but it is still the same trooper. And if the TAG is destroyed, the Pilot is removed as well.

    "The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG generates no Orders for himself or for his Order Pool."

    No Orders, which would include an LT Order, not just a Regular Order.

    "The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG is not considered either as a survivor or a casualty for Victory Points, Retreat! or any other purposes."

    My emphasis. LoL would fall under the bolded section.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    LoL doesn't care about "survivor" or "casualty"... just about Null states or Isolated.
     
  5. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Mmm i think pilot rules need a reunification and a rework.
     
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  6. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Unconscious is a Null State. The point is that the existence of the Pilot on the table is meaningless to keeping you out of Loss of LT.

    No argument there.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think this is one of those "unclear" areas if we're working from the framework you're describing.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So if you end your turn with Remote Pilot out (out of Lt REM TAG) you start your turn in LoL too ?
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Locked is not a Null state.
     
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  10. Kakino

    Kakino Desconfiando de Aleph

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    And which is the interaction with missions like Hunting Party? If you put in IMM state a desmounted pilot from a Lt TAG, that gives you points?
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Maybe (technically yes, probably not by intent).

    IMM applies to the 'Trooper' the TAG and Pilot are technically the same Trooper but they're also kind of not. Which is why my meta doesn't let me, for example, Spotlight a TAG to drop Guided missiles on the Pilot (or vice versa).
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Would you be surprised if I told you that it was asked in this forum if you could apply Supportware to a Remote Pilot, and then the TAG would use that supportware once the pilot re-mounted?

    Obviously it's not possible (at most, the pilot keeps the supportware until it expires, to get a precision flash pulse), but it was asked.
     
  13. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    The pilot rules are a bit weird, especially when compared to Operators(and vice versa).
    Operators essentially are just the last wound(s) of the TAG and they generate and receive orders in the TAG's place and can't voluntarily dismount, but pilots have this odd disassociation with the TAG caused by dismounting...
    If the TAG is the LT, and not the pilot, then we run into a few issues
    1 can a dismounted pilot from an LT tag use the LT order?
    2 if the pilot is removed from play the TAG is removed as well, so dead pilot= loss of lieutenant. But what about an unconscious or isolated pilot? Are you in lol with the pilot of an LT tag unconscious etc?

    If on the other hand the pilot is the LT, and the TAG is unconscious the LT isn't generating orders, is that the same as not having an LT on the table? If they still count as having an LT even without generating the orders, are they considered to be on the table if they're inside the unconscious TAG?

    The simplest solution is they are both the LT. A dismounted pilot can use the LT order, but If either one is in a Null state then you're in LoL, and if either is immobilised in Hunting Party they're hunted down.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @macfergusson Aight after re-reading the rules I think I see what you're talking about. Man, the Pilot/Manned rules are a mess...
     
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  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    Is the Lt profile in a null state? Yes
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If you have Kuroshi Rider as your lieutenant, is her dismounted profile not the same as the mounted profile? If she's dismounted at the beginning of your turn, are you in LoL?
     
  17. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Am I supposed to take this seriously? Do you really think that a Motorcycle Rider is the same as a TAG Pilot?
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I legitimately don't know how the rules define the difference. What makes the dismounted profile of the manned tag not a lieutenant but the dismounted profile of the motorcycle one?
     
  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    A dismounted Pilot of an Unconscious TAG can still run around and do stuff, but the TAG is still Unconscious. An Unconscious Motorcyclist is Unconscious and non-functional whether mounted or dismounted.

    The only reason this is complicated is because the Pilot IS THE SAME TROOPER as the TAG it comes from, but it has two separate physical bodies on the board when dismounted, and special dispensation to continue receiving orders while in a Null state.
     
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  20. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    In other words, an LT in a Null state is Loss of LT, whether it's a mounted or dismounted Unconscious TAG/Pilot/Motorcycle Rider or any other combination of weird variables of troop profiles.

    Barring, of course, completely unrelated things like Chain of Command, Mnemonica.
     
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