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Invincible Army Rework

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by BenMoss, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    DISCLAIMER
    • If you're looking for some minor fixes to specific units to make the current Invincible Army more powerful/balanced this is not the thread you are looking for.
    • If you're someone who posted in one of the literally hundreds of pages about IA or Uprising or the loss of faction identity who is interested in how we could've rebuilt a new focus then read on.
    PREFACE
    While I love the miniatures that CB produces and the nuanced interactions of the Infinity ruleset I feel that the game fiction and those rules do not always fit together as well as they could. I prime example of that was the recent Invincible Army sectorial.

    The fiction was the greatest industrial powerhouse in the human sphere modernising its armed forces. No longer would they win through force of numbers but through the technological enhancement of those forces on a massive scale. It is the dream of the first fully power armoured fighting force and what that could achieve.

    The reality was a sectorial that largely ran fireteams of light infantry to boost the efficiency of a small number of power armoured troops that didn't really feel very different to a number of other sectorials already in the game.

    That felt like a massively missed opportunity that I wanted to see if I could rectify.

    The Challenge
    The goal of this post is to explore whether or not it is possible to make a sectorial that better reflects the fictional description of the Invincible Army outlined above while also sticking to the miniature range and core ruleset that already exists

    This is not intended as a way of "fixing" the current Invincible Army sectorial and should be taken as more of a thought exercise around what form the sectorial could take in a new edition. It's about pushing some boundaries of the game so that new sectorials (for any faction) don't all end up being the 4 light infantry and a heavy point man that seems to have been becoming so prevalent recently.

    Of particular note in this regard is the use of Fireteam: Triad to represent the use of multiple small squads that take advantage of enhanced information sharing between technology enabled troops to maximise efficiency rather than the larger fireteams used in outdated forces across the Sphere. This allows a greater degree of tactical flexibility while retaining a concentration of firepower at the point of attack. While this skill was previously used by the Tohaa there is nothing intrinsic to working in small squads that should be considered unique to that race and it perfectly captures one of the core advantages (in a fictional sense) that would be derived from having an entirely power armour equipped force.

    Throughout this document you are likely to come across skills used in slightly unusual ways. Fireteam: Triad being the base fireteam being just one of them. In some cases this is down to certain things thematically fitting more closely and in others is down to one of the constraints I'm working with which is that I'm not going to be making up new rules. The suite of tools I have to work with are the rules which have already been written so please remember to view what's below in that context.


    CORE UNITS

    Zuyong
    *DESIGN NOTE* The base unit of the Imperial Army needs to be something that is cost effective so that it lends itself to being the backbone of the force but without being so effective that there is no reason to take any of the other units. With that in mind the renowned Riotgrrl profile was used as a base and then adapted with a range of weapons suited to this tactical role (the intent here was to use an efficient starting profile but then to avoid some of the more powerful active weapons such as the HMG that would skew the role of this unit). One of the key questions that should be asked is what benefits do servo-powered armors provide and while one aspect is the extra protection and life support systems that are integrated the other is an increased load capacity beyond that of an unassisted trooper. With that in mind the default weapon in the Imperial Army is the newly enhanced Heavy Combi Rifle (I note that I slightly broke my constraint of no new rules by using this weapon but it is just a Combi Rifle with the standard "Heavy" modifier and points cost added so felt like it just about still counted).

    HeavyCombiRifle.png

    Something I wanted to add somewhere in the army was a unit that could buff the normal existing link teams to represent additional training and technological integration of fire teams. Personally I think it would sit best on a unit like the Daoying but as they aren't part of fire teams themselves and how the Tri-Core rule works I ended up placing it here and on Tai Sheng as the next best option.

    Zuyong.png
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Grenades) = 26 pts
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Tactical Awareness) = 27 pts
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher (smoke and normal)) = 28 pts
    • Zuyong (Multi Marksman Rifle, MSV2) = 36 pts
    • Zuyong (Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Tactical Awareness) = 27 pts
    • Zuyong (MK12, Tactical Awareness) = 32 pts
    • Zuyong (Missile Launcher, Automedkit) = 2/32 pts
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/32 pts
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades, Paramedic) = 28 pts
    • Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle, Forward Observer, NCO) = 27 pts
    • Zuyong Sergeant (Heavy Combi Rifle, Number 2, Tri-Core) = 1/30 pts
    • Zuyong LT (Heavy Combi Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher (smoke and normal)= 28 pts



    Tai Sheng

    TaiSheng.png
    Fireteam: Counts as Zuyong
    • Tai Sheng (Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Tinbot B L2) = 45 pts
    • Tai Sheng (Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Tri-Core) = 1/47 pts
    • Tai Sheng (M12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades) = 45 pts
    • Tai Sheng (Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Tinbot B L2, Chain of Command) = 49 pts
    • Tai Sheng (Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Tri-Core, Chain of Command) = 1/51 pts
    • Tai Sheng (M12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades, Chain of Command) = 49 pts


    SUPPORT UNITS

    Zuyong Yisheng
    Just as the Zhanshi Yisheng have worked alongside the old banner armies now their modern equivalents fight alongside their Invincible brethren.

    ZuyongYisheng.png
    Fireteam: Counts as Zuyong
    • Zuyong Yisheng (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Doctor, Medikit) = 28pts


    Haidao
    *DESIGN NOTE* Thematically I would rather these troops had boarding shotguns rather than heavy combi rifles but the Haidao model has already been released with a combi so I've gone with that. The unit was given mimetism to maintain the visual language of the model and faction.

    *FICTION UPDATE* The following is a change to the existing naval background for the unit (why would the random naval unit have wild card and integrated training with every aspect of the Army?) -
    The Haidao Engineering Corp are a vital part of the Imperial Army and provide invaluable support in the form of reinforcing key defensive positions, anti-material or demolition duties and the occasional combat engineer.

    Haidao.png
    • Haidao (Heavy Combi Rifle, Mimetism, D-Charges) = 30 pts
    • Haidao (Heavy Combi Rifle, Mimetism, Engineer, D-Charges) = 34 pts
    • Haidao (Heavy Combi Rifle, Mimetism, Chain of Command) = 35 pts
    • Haidao (Multi-Sniper, MSV2, Mimetism, Sapper) = 1.5/41 pts
    • Haidao (Feuerbach, MSV1, Mimetism, Sapper) = 2/39 pts


    Zhanshi Yisheng
    *FICTION UPDATE* While the ultimate goal is to role out servo-powered armor across the whole Invincible Army there are still sections that have yet to recieve their armor upgrades. The State Empire could not be seen to be putting front line combat troops into the field without the appropriate equipment but those in support roles are not always so lucky.

    ZhanshiYisheng.png

    NO NEW PROFILES​

    Mech Engineer
    ZhanshiGongcheng.png

    NO NEW PROFILES​


    Shang Ji
    *DESIGN NOTE* When trying to find a role for the Shang Ji I decided to lean on the lore of the improved infowar protection rather than just their mobility. This actually gives them quite a unique feel and makes a lot of sense in the context of expected combat against both PanO and Combined Army.

    *FICTION UPDATE* While the Zuyong form the bulk of the Imperial forces early encounters with the Combined Army soon highlighted the dangers of taking a fully servo-powered unit into direct action against an infowar capable opponent. Heavy losses in these early encounters lead to a strategic redeployment of the Shang Ji armor to units specifically trained to counter the infowar units deployed against Yu Jing. These units take advantage of their improved mobility and enhanced info-biotech protection to rapidly close on these units and either establish a counter network or move in to deliver the killing blow themselves. With Shang Ji troops often being sent into blackout zones where the enemy have a strong infowar presence only troops with an ability to think on their feet and operate outside of the traditional command structure are selected for this elite unit. While they are often used as lone strike units the Imperial Army fighting doctrine allows the Shang Ji to seemlessly integrate themselves into Zuyong units where their technical support prowess is required.

    ShangJi.png
    • Shang Ji (Light Flamethrower, Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 32 pts
    • Shang Ji (Nullifier, Jammer, Tinbot B, Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 37 pts
    • Shang Ji (Nanopulser, Pitcher, Assault Hacker (UP: WhiteNoise), Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 0.5/38 pts
    • Shang Ji (Nanopulser, Pitcher, Killer Hacker, Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 35 pts
    • Shang Ji (Nullifier, Jammer, Tinbot B, Engineer, Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 40 pts
    • Shang Ji (Light Rocket Launcher, Crazy Koalas, Tinbot B, Heavy Pistol x2, Shock CCW) = 0.5/42 pts


    Krit Kokram
    *DESIGN NOTE* With Tai Sheng filling the role of a zuyong hero and representing an elite version of that unit CB had clearly aimed for something different with Krit Kokram. However, his weapon set just didn't match the rest of the Zuyong but his pistol oriented model and fiction would much more closely the updated Shang Ji as a tech oriented assault specialist. I think I've technically overcosted this unit but thats only due to oddities on the costs of Holoprojector L1 and Fatality L2. There is a it of a choice here as well due to the Crazy Koalas giving away the use of Holoprojector if deployed but that probably balances the points efficiency somewhat.

    KritKokram.png
    • Krit Kokram (Chain-colt, Heavy Pistol x2, Crazy Koalas, D-Charges, Engineer) = 35 pts
    • Krit Kokram (Chain-colt, Heavy Pistol x2, Crazy Koalas, D-Charges, Engineer, NCO) = 37 pts
    • Krit Kokram (Chain-colt, Heavy Pistol x2, Crazy Koalas, D-Charges, Engineer, Killer Hacker) = 38 pts




    ASSAULT UNITS

    Liu Xing Orbital Assault
    *DESIGN NOTE* The existing design for this unit felt like it was struggling for identity without becoming a balance issue. As such some changes have been made to double down on the benefits of power armour in an orbital combat scenario and how that could open new attack vectors without just making an unstoppable attack threat. The albedo skill is present to represent the deployment of chaff on landing/deployment even though I know it negates the use of mimetism while active. Mimetism was kept as it is part of the visual language of the model/faction. Climbing plus seemed appropriate for units that have to clamber all over starship hulls and are used to fighting in full 360' conditions. The weapons were all selected to be usable in a starship where you may not want to punch holes in the outer hull unless you need to. The profile and cost also assume the Fire special rule has been added to Explode LX. The Nullifiers fit the unit fiction but also provide a way of mitigating heavy repeater nets at an order efficiency cost and without the active turn defence that Veteran or TinBots would provide so they remain vulnerable to counter attack. As to why the unit has Frenzy there is an adage that you have to be slightly mad to jump out of a perfectly servicable plane onto a static enemy position. How much crazier do you need to be to jump from a perfectly servicable space craft into the vacuum of space in the hope of landing on a potentially moving enemy space craft?

    *FICTION UPDATE* While the primary fighting force of the Imperial Army is built around the Zuyong Invincibles there are times where strategic command need to draw on different avenues of attack, particularly when assaulting heavily fortified positions. To achieve that end there has been a recent program of integration between the Army and the Imperial Navy. That program has lead to a number of Liu Xing orbital assault units being made available to the Army in time of need. These troops have extensive training in zeroG combat and starship assault where their equipment has been tailored to foiling enemy targeting systems as they approach and breaching the outer hull of enemy vessels to lead direct assaults on the bridge or other key systems where the goal is often to disable those systems so that ships can be captured rather than destroyed outright. While their weapons training is focussed on the shorter ranges found inside starships the shock of a Liu Xing landing is often enough to buy them the few seconds they need to lay waste to any highly fortified position.

    LiuXing.png
    *NOTE* This unit is intended to still have the original skills it had as well: BioImmunity, AD: Combat Jump, Explode LX and NWI (plus only a single wound). I'll update the image when I get a chance.
    • Liu Xing (Vulkan Shotgun, EM Grenades, Nullifier, DA CCW) = 32 pts
    • Liu Xing (Breaker Combi Rifle, EM Grenades, Nullifier, Specialist, DA CCW) = 34 pts
    • Liu Xing (Multi-Rifle, EM Grenades, Nullifier, Specialist, DA CCW) = 36 pts


    Tiger Soldier
    *LORE UNUPDATE* Tigers are still part of the Imperial Army as the main airborne deployment force

    Tiger.png
    NO CHANGE​


    Hulang Shocktrooper
    *DESIGN NOTE* The lore for the Hulang has them portrayed as violent thugs willing to throw themselves into the thickest action. The profile simply didn't match that description. Instead I took the Shikami as the base profile and adapted it with a slight shift of emphasis from cyber ninja to wu shu. While this unit doesn't have the stealth assassination potential on turn 1 that was present with Kitsune/Oniwaban it does provide a clear melee threat that an opponent can't afford to ignore. By limiting the unit to forward deployment level 1 it not only limits the alpha strike potential but also provides the option of Kanren based shell games in vanilla.

    Hulang.png
    • Hulang (Contender, Monofilament CCW) = 41 pts
    • Hulang (Contender, Nimbus Grenades, Monofilament CCW) = 43 pts
    • Hulang (Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades, Monofilament CCW) = 39 pts

    *DESIGN NOTE* I had considered adding a CC focussed G:sync bot into the mix (after a suggestion in the YJ N4 thread by @colbrook and @SpectralOwl) but it ends up causing unnecessary confusion due to interactions between Martial Arts on different participants in the combat and Electric Pulse. There isn't an easy way of removing the electric pulse that I'm aware of and the vagaries of the CB costing model is such that the Electric Pulse may well be reducing the overall cost of the unit. In theory the bot would've looked something like what's shown below assuming the Electric Pulse could be removed at 0 cost. Alternately a Damage 12 CrazyKoala that doesn't destroy itself at the end of its Boost reaction might cost around 3-4pts but it would be a new rule rather than something derived from existing rules.

    Murderbot.png
    • Murderbot (Shock CCW) = 7pts



    RECON UNITS

    Zhencha
    *DESIGN NOTE* No real change to the Zhencha other than to add minelayer to a couple of profiles and giving them all forward observer. This was to better represent the fact that they're supposed to be a recon unit not a strike unit but given the limited model numbers expected with IA and in light of camo spam lists and extensive decoys it felt important to add a degree of first turn resilience from midfield presense if this unit was chosen. This choice also provides a list building option between the more defensive Zhencha unit or the more offensive Daofei

    Zhencha.png
    • Zhencha (Boarding Shotgun, AntiPerson Mines, Minelayer, Pitcher) = 39 pts
    • Zhencha (SMG, AntiPerson Mines, Minelayer, Pitcher) = 36 pts
    • Zhencha (Boarding Shotgun, Assault Hacker) = 0.5/42 pts


    Daofei
    *DESIGN NOTE* The goal here was to reintegrate the Daofei in line with the Zhencha while also giving it a unique role. In the lore their focus is on hunting and survival (alone) rather than forward recon so those were the themes that I doubled down on. I would rather have not had either the Red Fury or HMG here but sadly there is already a Daofei model equipped with an HMG so I tried to slightly overcost them with an automedkit.

    Daofei.png
    • Daofei (Tactical Bow, Marksmanship (L2), Tactical Awareness, Light Flamethrower, DA CCW) = 38 pts
    • Daofei (Tactical Bow, Marksmanship (L2), MSV1, Light Flamethrower, DA CCW) = 40 pts
    • Daofei (Multi-Marksman Rifle, Light Flamethrower, DA CCW) = 49 pts
    • Daofei (Red Fury, Automedkit, Light Flamethrower, DA CCW) = 1/50 pts
    • Daofei (HMG, Automedkit, Light Flamethrower, DA CCW) = 2/53 pts



    COMMAND UNITS

    Daoying
    *DESIGN NOTE* The Daoying is already a fantastic unit and required little in the way of updates. The only real changes I wanted to make were to push it further into the command/team support role by adding an upgrade to the hacking device and to give it an assault hacking profile to represent the extension of that control paradigm onto the enemy force.

    Daoying.png
    Fireteam: Special (2x Daoying + Pangguling FTO)​
    • Daoying (Boarding Shotgun) = 21 pts
    • Daoying (Boarding Shotgun, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/29 pts
    • Daoying (Boarding Shotgun, Assault Hacking Device (UP: WhiteNoise)) = 0.5/27 pts
    • Daoying (Multi-Sniper, AntiPerson Mines, Minelayer) = 1.5/32 pts
    • Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun) = 21 pts
    • Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/29 pts
    • Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun, Assault Hacking Device (UP: WhiteNoise)) = 0.5/27 pts
    • Daoying LT2 (Multi-Sniper, AntiPerson Mines, Minelayer) = 1.5/32 pts
    Sun Tze
    SunTze.png
    Fireteam: Counts as Daoying​
    • NO CHANGE except switching LT to LT2
    Sun Tze v2 (Marksman)
    *DESIGN NOTE* I'm really not sure what I can do to save this unit as fundamentally it's just not a good unit design. High risk sniper plays do not combine well with high cost and obvious LT.

    SunTzeV2.png
    Fireteam: Counts as Daoying​
    • Sun Tze (Viral Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse) = 1.5/44 pts
    • Sun Tze (Viral Sniper, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse) = 1.5/48 pts
    • Sun Tze (Feuerbach, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse) = 2/47 pts
    • Sun Tze LT2 (Viral Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, Advanced Command) = 1.5/49 pts
    • Sun Tze LT2 (Viral Sniper, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, Advanced Command) = 1.5/53 pts
    • Sun Tze LT2 (Feuerbach, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, Advanced Command) = 2/52 pts
    Hac Tao
    *DESIGN NOTE* Thematically it feels like there is a lot of crossover between the Hac Tao and the Daofei but the rules are clearly different. With the current fiction i feel the Hac Tao could be cut here, however with a view to keeping the unit available i'm going to tweak the fiction a little instead. I tried to keep the focus on more reactive weapons than active turn power house weapons like the HMG

    *FICTION UPDATE* After losing a number of key personnel to Shasvastii infiltrators Sun Tze oversaw the creation of the Hac Tao. These elite troops are taken from a broad range of Imperial units whether that be Daofei special forces or particularly adept Kanren of the ISS. Wherever they come from they demonstrate an aptitude for both surveillance and the swift decisive action needed to take command of any situation.

    With the reverse engineering of armor captured on the Paradiso front these troops are now equipped with the very best optical camoufalge available to the State Empire. Given the limited numbers of these advanced suits they are reserved solely for the use of Hac Tao forces rather than risk losing them behind enemy lines.

    Hac Tao are deployed throughout the Invincible Army hierarchy ready to root out any compromised troops and take charge in the event of the loss of a commanding officer. Many in the Imperial forces do not even know of their existence but just as stories of loyal soldiers transforming and turning on their commanders have started to make their way back from the front so too have tales of these black clad guardians stepping from the shadows to stop these abominations in their tracks.

    HacTao.png
    • Hac Tao (Multi-Rifle, Nanopulser) = 63 pts
    • Hac Tao (Vulkan Shotgun, Nanopulser) = 60 pts
    • Hac Tao (Red Fury, Nanopulser) = 1/64 pts
    • Hac Tao (Feuerbach, Nanopulser) = 2/65 pts
    • Hac Tao (Multi-Rifle, Nanopulser, Killer Hacker) = 66 pts



    ARMOR UNITS

    Mowang
    *DESIGN NOTE* The model for this is great but felt like it needed a bit of separation from the Yan Huo. As such I've tried to position it as the heavy point man spearheading co-ordinated attacks. With that in mind it has link team options to join Zuyong but with more in the way of mid range weapon options to fit that assault role. The bulk of this unit is not inconsiderable and I also contemplated adding Heavyweight to the profile to capture the difficulty of moving such armor in tight spaces (this would potentially come with a small cost saving).

    Mowang.png
    • Mowang (NCO, Multi-Rifle) = 56 pts
    • Mowang (NCO, Red Fury) = 1/58 pts
    • Mowang (NCO, Spitfire) = 2/58 pts
    • Mowang LT (Multi-Rifle) = 54 pts
    • Mowang LT (Red Fury) = 56 pts
    • Mowang LT (Spitfire) = 1/56 pts


    Yan Huo Invincible
    *DESIGN NOTE* The model for this is great but felt like it needed a bit of separation from the Mowang. As such I've doubled down on the long range hail of fire motif that was present in the fiction but didn't quite come across in a useable way in the previous rules package. The weapon selection was tweaked slightly but still maintains the spread of one active specialist, one aro specialist and one balanced while avoiding issues with excessive burst values. The bulk of this unit is not inconsiderable and I also contemplated adding Heavyweight to the profile to capture the difficulty of moving such armor in tight spaces (this would potentially come with a small cost saving).

    YanHuo.png
    • Yan Huo (FTO, Feuerbach, Tactical Awareness, Total Reaction) = 2/49 pts
    • Yan Huo (FTO, 2 Missile Launchers, Total Reaction) = 2/53 pts
    • Yan Huo (HRMC, Sensor, Tactical Awareness) = 2/56 pts
    • Yan Huo LT (FTO, Feuerbach, Tactical Awareness, Total Reaction) = 2/49 pts
    • Yan Huo LT (HRMC, Sensor, Tactical Awareness) = 2/56 pts



    Guija
    *DESIGN NOTES* This is another fantastic model that really needed a couple of tweaks to make it worth the points investment. In the fiction they are supposed to be picked from the best of the best and trained from a really young age for this specialist task but that never really came across at all. The sensor was given to them to represent advanced targeting optics where they potentially tank some incoming fire while positioning for a triangulated shot from their primary weaponry. This keeps the feel of winning through weight of fire over more high tech anti-camo options. The second key change was adding an extra profile that swapped out the giant sword for a second ranged weapon in keeping with the Yu Jing doctrine of victory through superior firepower. They were also updated with a bit of a CC boost and weapon change. The overall package has a slightly higher cost but there are some options with the unit that should make it feel like it is worth considering in an army now rather than just being a showcase miniature sitting on a shelf.

    Guija.png
    • Guija (HRMC, Heavy Flamethrower, Exp CCW) = 2/93 pts
    • Guija (HRMC, Heavy Flamethrower, Heavy Grenade Launcher) = 2/93 pts
    • Guija LT (HRMC, Heavy Flamethrower, Exp CCW) = 3/93 pts
    • Guija LT (HRMC, Heavy Flamethrower, Heavy Grenade Launcher) = 3/93 pts


    REMOTE SUPPORT
    *DESIGN NOTE* No real changes here beyond some availability and fireteam tweaks to give the sectorial some cheaper options through the use of remotes

    Chaiyi (AVA: 3)
    NO CHANGE​


    Husong (AVA: 3)
    NO CHANGE​


    Son-bae (AVA: 1)
    Fireteam: Wildcard​


    Weibing (AVA: 2)
    Fireteam: Wildcard​


    Yaozao (AVA: 4)
    NO CHANGE​


    Pangguling (AVA: 2)
    Replacement for existing FTO profile​
    • Pangguling FTO (Light Flamethrower) = 10pts
    Lu Duan (AVA: 2)
    *DESIGN NOTE* It was important to maintain the same fireteam options across the Lu Duan and Rui Shi for the holoprojector shell games to have any value. This way there are some options for surprise flame throwers catching unwary albedo users.

    FTO profile that can join Zuyong links​
    • Lu Duan FTO (Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower) = 21 pts
    Rui Shi (AVA: 2)
    FTO profile that can join Zuyong links​
    • Rui Shi FTO (Spitfire) =1/20pts
    WarCor (AVA: 1)
    NO CHANGE​
     

    Attached Files:

    #1 BenMoss, Nov 7, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    Superfluid likes this.
  2. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I don't know… I think you have a very radical vision with your proposed changes. The army just needs a few minor tweaks here and there in order to work competitively and a few more profiles to add variety of tactics.

    Also tactical awareness is a very powerful skill and must be extremely careful with it. For example you can't design a unit costing 27 with that skill and give AVA total to that unit. Because there's nothing preventing players from bringing 10 Zuyong with TacAwar for a total of 20 orders.
     
  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    This all sounds like some serious power creeping. IA has some pretty serious problems in its design, but most of that can and should be adjusted with some minor tweaks. There are a few troopers that could use considerable reworking, and the Tiger and Daofei absolutely do belong back in, but what you're grasping for is ridiculously over the top.

    Gonna be a 'no' from me, dawg.
     
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  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the work and though put into this but I agree that it’s way too much. Also there’s things that don’t make sense in YJ. It takes away the flavor of them. Like Crazy Koalas, Vulkan Shotgun, Viral weapons are just not YJ and makes it more like other armies. Thinks that are more “Yu Jing” are Mad Traps, Breaker ammo, used to be the first with Red Fury but now everyone has it.
     
  5. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Triad and Tri-core are Tohaa rules, and really strong rules at that, so that's a no-go. I skimmed a bit more and saw full auto on a couple of units that definitely should not have full auto... a noble effort but I doubt it has wings
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm low-key fidgeting with a remake thingy as well, but have decided to go much, much, closer to the original than this. Here's a few reactions:

    You've used Frenzy everywhere to reduce prices. While in general I think your prices checks out in most cases, making Invincible Army into a bunch of frothing lunatics just to eek out a few points is not a good direction, in my opinion. These are meant to be the disciplined troopers, not the murder-happy bunch of sociopaths that are Morats. But... congrats on making a solid Morat suggestion :D

    Triad. Been thinking about this one and while this is treading on Tohaa territory, I think there's extremely good potential in specifically a HI-oriented army like IA for this instead of Cores.

    Heavy Combi Rifles. This isn't a fix to any problem, to be perfectly honest. Yes, more lethal, but I think the problems that need addressing is a) prohibitive cost, b) low ability to soak losses or non-null take outs, and c) Hackability everywhere. Yes to the Grenade Launcher, but the Smoke Grenade Launcher is a bit of a cop-out ;)

    Pitchers: Okay, we need to talk about this one. Yes, it'll add a lot of protective power and reach to your hackers, but the army with the single most trouble with hacking is IA and you're not going to address that by making them into Nomads. To be perfectly frank, I'd much rather see a couple of well-placed Grenade Launchers to deal with repeaters and people hiding inside buildings behind Hackers than making this the best hacker army in the game (which so many Fireteamed Tinbot Bs will do with this many Pitchers)

    Hacking Program Upgrades: Yes, I do think there should be upgrades available here, but I think they should be IA exclusive profiles and I think IA should thus be kept free of MSV2+smoke tricks

    Zuyong: Standing in place, keeping what makes them iffy and adding mostly more confusion in the amount of profiles. I don't like these, I'd like to see them as the default standard barebones heavy infantry and this is not it.

    Tai Sheng: Why lower PH than Zuyong? Also, you don't need to add L2 after the Tinbot. Tinbot B has Deflector L2.

    Zuyong Yisheng: I get it, but no, particularly not when there is no Zuyong Gong-cheng and when it can't form a Fireteam. So you don't gain much in terms of gameplay and you sacrifice the storytelling element of how they trust their armour to keep them safe over having people to help them up on the field.

    Haidao: I think the game needs less MSV2 + Mimetism, not more. That said, what if you made them everything the Bao could be but aren't? Just add MSV2 to all of them and call it a day!

    Shang-Ji: I thought Nullifier was beyond what humans could make? Also, I don't particularly enjoy the aesthetic of stripping the gun fully from them to save points...

    Krit Kokram: What is he going to do with Fat2 when he has no guns? I mean I could see it being a cool idea for a unit with dual heavy pistols, but I'm less a fan of this one than the official version.
    CrazyKoalas, though, I agree with.

    Liu Xing: You removed AD from the Shooting Star? Also, remember that Boarding Shotgun is the naval shotgun while Vulkan is the urban/jungle shotgun.

    Tiger: You don't find AD troops with Fireteam allowance for what I think is an important design reason.

    Hulang: Yes to the overall idea of reducing cost by adding Fury but I think you've over-fixed him. I can see Hulang going one of two ways;
    Limited Camo and Climb+ and remove Specialist Operative so that Zhencha and Hulang are not trampling over each other's roles too much.
    Simply removing the infiltrator stuff entirely to make a close range combat operative for Zuyong Fireteams.
    P.s. I suppose Eclipse Grenades would do a decent job as well... but Hulang is trying to avoid over-spending on PH by using Mono CCW instead, so...

    Murderbot: I don't see the point.

    Zhencha: I think the big problem with this profile is the internal balance of the profile itself. Forward Observer isn't a big deal, but the mines are and while Minelayer is a huge deal for IA specifically in solving some of the problems with dealing with things like Taigha Creatures and their ilk, I think all this accomplishes is further exasperating the problem. I'd rather see the Boarding Shotgun profile get the mines and the SMG become the Hacker and a Killer Hacker at that.
    However, I think minelayer on Zhencha is the correct idea, particularly if you want a low-key, high-impact, fix for IA.

    Daofei: Again, I think you're going overboard just to make alterations. All I think needs doing with Daofei is to reduce it by the 5 points that I think I can detect it paying as a premium for being HI with Infiltration and Camo (a premium that Zhencha isn't paying as far as I can tell)

    Sun Tze: Changing to LT2 is huge.
    Sun Tze 2: Several fixes of which I think you need to pick one. Also do consider what Marksmanship does in conjunction with Multi. MSV2 is probably by far enough of a fix here considering he's native to smoke-rich ISS.
    First order of business, however, is to move Strategos down to the LT profiles only, and if you really want to spice things up add Counter-intelligence to the non-LT profiles. I also don't think a non-partisan political figure would be welcomed in IA.

    Hac Tao: Besides adding a light shotgun to the Missile Launcher and removing the defunct XO profiles, I don't see why there is a point changing this one.

    Mowang: So... a Mimetic Gamma with slightly lighter weapons. Counter suggestion: Stealth + Climb+. Think "night raid"

    Yan Huo: Full-Auto on a HRMC unit - no way. Considering the inherent bullocks that's going on with this unit's costs, I'd slap Marksmaship 2 on there and call it a day.

    Guijia: I'm estimating your equipment options to 100 points. With Tactical Awareness I don't think something drastic is needed
    Instead, how about;
    MHMG + HFLT, DA CCW, NCO @ 90/2
    MHMG + HFLT, DA CCW, LT2 @ 88/3
    MHMG + HFLT, DA CCW, AD3 + Explode X @ 93/3
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tohaa rule shmohaa rule. I think they changed the name away from "Tohaa Triad" to just "Triad" for a reason. We'll see where they officially implement it among non-Tohaa.
     
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  8. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    It is a pretty radical change and that was deliberate as I wasn't intending it as a "how to fix IA" post. It was a re-envisaging of the sectorial using existing rules to better capture the fiction of what the sectorial was supposed to be. I've added a bit of extra preface to the front of the post to try and make that clearer to future readers (as I totally get it wasn't obvious).

    Tactical Awareness is indeed a strong skill and one of the sample lists I built (which will be linked below once I've answered the points raised by others) will attempt to build out from trying to abuse it. You'll notice it's harder than it first appears as you don't have access to the same cheap filler troops that power other factions. It's also worth noting that Tactical Awareness is mostly on Zuyong profiles that bring little themselves and so they are deliberately there as facilitators to other units but you need to make compromises to afford those other units. Ultimately though, they are supposed to be the core infantry, that's kind of the point :)
     
  9. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    Crazy Koalas are a YJ invention in the fiction and I totally agree that they are not appropriate for peace keeping forces such as the Imperial Service. But this is a front line army fighting an alien menace.

    The only Viral weapons listed in the whole thing are on Sun Tze v2 who is an Aleph construct anyway (plus we already have Viral Sniper weapons in faction on Major Lunah). Mostly though I think Sun Tze v2 is never going to work as a concept given the way the rules work and I was looking for anything to get the cost down :)

    Vulkan Shotguns are present on two units in the list. The Liu Xing have them because I was thinking about weapons you might want to use while assaulting a star ship (i.e. you might not need oxygen due to your armour but any flight crew coming over to capture the enemy vessel later might not be so happy with you punching giant holes all over the hull so what weapons might you use to avoid that). If you read the fiction update this is quite an important lens through which to view their loadout. The Hac Tao have it because on some level they're a bit more willing to use "non-standard" tech and secondly they are there as a counter to an enemy threat that can change its appearance or disappear both of which are a lot harder to do if you're on fire. In retrospect I could've achieved the same ends by giving them a light flame thrower rather than a nanopulser but they were the last unit to make it into the post and I probably hurried their profiles slightly :(
     
  10. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    I've added an extra preface at the start to explain the constraints I was working under. Most notably that I was avoiding making up new rules if at all possible. I've also tried to clarify how the intent was to show how you could make a different kind of sectorial that really pushed the list makeup that it created and how in combination with my previous point that would involve me re-using rules from elsewhere.

    I get that only factions X and Y have access to technology Z (e.g. limits on TO: Camo) but this is not one of those situations. It's just about how troops are grouped and trained.

    Full auto is present on two units in total. The Yan Huo has it at level 2 as their whole fiction is based around the fact that they just keep firing at things until there is nothing left. If ever there was a unit which should have full auto that is it.

    The Mowang has it at level 1 only as it is also built on an S5 chassis that has massive ammo barrels on it but actually uses a lighter weapon than is carried by many light infantry. That implies pretty strongly that it's going to being quite liberal with the ammo :)
     
  11. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    First up, thanks for taking the time to put together a longer response :)

    I have, and I agree that it's not ideal but without the ability to just hand edit points costs to reflect the effectiveness of specific skill combinations there had to be something :(

    The reason I chose Frenzy specifically was that I could see an in world narrative around having to start employing combat drugs/other enhancements through the power armour once those troops had started engaging enemy forces that had a habit of destroying cubes. Death and combat starts taking on a different light at that point and these troops have been on the front line of that conflict.

    To some extent I agree that this isn't really an efficiency upgrade and it wasn't really intended as one. One of the key points made about power armour as it exists today is the extra carrying capacity it gives so I wanted to reflect that in some way (think of it in the same light as TAG weapons getting Fatality L1). The extra cost was actually a good thing as I wanted to offset the savings from Frenzy slightly.

    Modern day militaries use smoke quite a lot so it didn't seem out of place. That said, I'm perfectly willing to be convinced to switch them all over to eclipse to avoid MSV2 tricks.

    Nomads get extensive repeater nets and cheap line troops that enable them to really take advantage of the multiple hacking options they have at their disposal. Building a hacking focussed list is certainly possible from this proof of concept sectorial but is a lot harder and leaves you quite weak elsewhere. That said, I could be persuaded to drop the Shang Ji assault hacker all together but I think it still serves a purpose on the killer hacker if we're sticking with the background of the Shang Ji suits being designed for better infowar use and these troops hunting down the enemy hacking threats that can strongly counter an otherwise very hackable faction.

    The fact that the Zhencha don't fireteam means you're giving up potential firepower to even take them. To then lose more traditional means of winning a firefight by focusing on hacking feels like a reasonable cost and I can't think of many more appropriate weapons/equipment to give a recon unit.

    Yep, agreed on the IA only profiles and I'm mostly in agreement on smoke tricks too (see above re: eclipse)

    There are five zuyong models: Multi-rifle, HMG (no pistols), Combi, Boarding Shotgun, MissileLauncher

    So I was attempting to represent all of those to a reasonable degree while also trying to avoid Zuyong just being the answer to everything (see Tac Aware HMG in the current IA). Troops elsewhere in the sectorial that specialise are better at that specialist role while the aim was to retain some ability to skew these troops one way or another.

    On top of supporting the existing model range I was also trying to cover the traditional suite of tools provided by the base infantry of any sectorial. That has definitely created more profiles than would be ideal (I'd rather be at the 8-9 range than the 11-12 range of order sergeants).

    Out of curiosity, how would you make them more barebones while still being heavy infantry? A lot of them are standard rifle and some sort of grenade to give more of an army feel while deliberately avoiding the extreme end weapons of sniper rifles and HMGs.

    Because those are the stats she currently has. While I've managed to reverse engineer the costs of pretty much every weapon and piece of equipment in this list I haven't managed the same for the stats. I get that because I've derived Zuyong from Riotgrrls rather than rebuilding them from scratch they just have better stats than Tai Sheng does. In a world of knowing the stats costs I might be able to wrangle something better here but it takes quite a long time to reverse engineer all the stats already :(

    There was no Zuyong Gongcheng as the Haidao engineering corp was also a thing and that was just unecessary duplication. For Fireteam it says "Counts as Zuyong" beneath the stat block :)

    I like you're thinking about the narrative of trusting the armour though so I could be persuaded to cut this for version 2.

    I gave them mimetism because the model has the hatched surfaces that were supposed to represent mimetism (if you remember the video Bostria did about how they were using the materials more in the sculpts to represent this kind of thing). If I were to do anything it would probably be to drop MSV2 to MSV1.

    I was also trying to think about the role of modern day engineering corps troops and roles they traditionally fill. So there's a mix of anti-material weapons, some entrenchment tools, etc. I so wish the second sculpt had a shotgun rather than a combi :(

    I was mostly thinking of the fact that we have no model for them currently and so was trying to tie them to the Krit Kokram model as a starting point (i.e. dual wielding pistols). They are the only unit I gave Nullifiers to and I did this to represent them trying to use some of the alien tech that had been captured on the front in a way that fitted with the role I saw them filling.

    He was supposed to have 2 Heavy Pistols but I missed them off his profile. I'll go fix that.

    Also a mistake on the AD, they are very much meant to have it :(

    Fair call on the shotguns. I hadn't read where they were supposed to come from and had just been thinking about why I'd want a weapon that would burn itself out rather than punch a hole in the hull of the ship my friends were hoping to fly later.

    I was probably misremembering that being a thing at some point in the past and the fact that the co-ordinated orders rules can still be used for dropping multiple units in simultaneously. I'll just take it out to avoid confusion.

    He's based off of the Shikami but with the climbing+ removed. Essentially I was trying to build more of a power armoured chinese style wuxia and less of a climbing cyber-ninja.

    I'll switch the smoke for eclipse as per other smoke trick comments.

    The Murderbot was discussed in another thread and I thought I'd throw it in to see if it would serve a purpose as much as anything else. I tend to agree that it probably feels superfluous.

    The reason I went for an Assault Hacker here rather than a Killer Hacker is that I wanted to keep the Shang Ji doing the counter info-war work so if you want to go hunting enemy hackers you take one of them. The Zhencha are supposed to be a recon unit hence giving them forward observer and the mines as a bit of zone control. Of all the hacker variants the Assault option seemed the most appropriate for a forward deployed unit that isn't a hunter killer unit itself. I didn't want this to be an optimal choice though (see your comments on pitchers and Nomads above) so the hacker itself is slightly overspending on weapons and doesn't have a pitcher for its own use. It also gives you a bit of a shell game option in the midfield.

    I think the old Daofei was just costed a long time ago and CB don't keep the profiles up to date. With that in mind I just rebuilt it from the Zhencha profile as a base but skewed the equipment and skills to better represent a hunter killer or saboteur dropped behind enemy lines rather than a recon unit. As much as people criticised CB for how they talked about design space this is an area where this unit would be doubling up redundantly if it wasn't pushed into its own space somehow, hence the emphasis on some hunting/assassination skills.

    I'll just take him out.

    This is another unit that suffered from the design space issue that also plagued the Daofei. They're sneaky and have really good equipment where the Daofei are sneaky and have really good training but they're trained at essentially the same thing. With that in mind I went with the Daofei being the sneaky behind enemy lines troops while the Hac Tao had more of an emphasis on surprise but hopefully in a way that would justify why they were the only YJ troops to have TO: Camo.

    Having established a fiction I could get behind that fitted their most important skills/equipment (taking over command and TO: Camo) it was just a matter of filling that out with the skills available to better realise that fiction.

    I think there is absolutely a role for something more "night raid" (although you could argue that's what the Daofei HMG profile is) I'm not sure the model really sells that. It's a big heavy beast of a unit with large ammo feeds and mimetic camouflage on it. I just made what the model said on the tin :(

    It should probably just be a Multi-HMG but the model had an HRMC. I'll switch it though as you're right that B6 is one of those things best avoided (though B5 and Fatality L2 should've been avoided more given the statistical swing that gives).

    I started putting this whole thing together before TAGs got all the upgrades so some of the costs may have got a bit confused with the Guija. I'll take a look and see what needs updating there.

    I'd definitely argue that that sword is not just a DA CCW :)
     
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  12. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    Sample Army Lists

    List 1 - Power Punch
    Mowang (NCO, Red Fury) = 1/58 pts
    Zuyong Sergeant (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Number 2, Tri-Core) = 1/30 pts
    Shang Ji (Nullifier, Jammer, Tinbot B, Engineer) = 40 pts

    Haidao (Multi-Sniper, MSV2, Mimetism, Sapper) = 1.5/41 pts
    Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/29 pts
    Pangguling FTO (Light Flamethrower) = 10pts

    Rui Shi (Spitfire) = 1/20 pts
    Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Light Grenade Launcher (smoke and normal)) = 28 pts
    Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Forward Observer, NCO) = 27 pts

    Zhanshi Yisheng (Combi Rifle) = 15 pts

    298 total
    The main focus of this list was to create the hardest hitting strike team possible. That means a Mowang leading the charge with tri-core support and hacking defence. At an effective BS19 with mimetism and burst 5 that's a top line attack unit with an engineer close by (along with deployable nullifiers on attack) should it get locked down. This is backed up with a Rui Shi fireteam with imbedded smoke that can push another flank. Meanwhile a Haidao sniper provides ARO support as required. There are lots of fireteam options in this list particularly around the use of the tri-core zuyong that would allow for a more defensive setup if going second (Haidao in the core, etc).


    List 2 - Optimised for Hacking
    Krit Kokram (Chain-colt, Crazy Koalas, D-Charges, Engineer, Killer Hacker) = 38 pts
    Tai Sheng (Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Tinbot B L2) = 45 pts
    Zuyong (MK12, Tactical Awareness) = 32 pts

    Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/29 pts
    Daoying (Boarding Shotgun, Assault Hacking Device (UP: WhiteNoise)) = 0.5/27 pts
    Shang Ji (Light Rocket Launcher, Crazy Koalas, Tinbot B) = 0.5/42 pts

    Zhencha (SMG, AntiPerson Mines, Minelayer, Pitcher) = 36 pts
    Zhanshi Yisheng (Combi Rifle) = 15 pts
    Yaozao = 3 pts
    Husong (HMG) = 25 pts
    Chaiyi = 8 pts

    300 total
    Several camo tokens (including a mine) and multiple koalas make it expensive to hack into but there are plenty of tricks available on the hacking front. Pitcher to get range, tinbot defence for all hackers, surprise killer hacker coming out of holoecho, etc. Option to switch the doctor for an engineer to pickup the TR bot instead if needed. Probably doubling down too much on the hacking at the cost of general use but it shows what can be done.



    List 3 - Zuyong Horde

    Zuyong Sergeant (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Number 2, Tri-Core) = 1/30 pts
    Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Forward Observer, NCO) = 27 pts
    Zuyong (MK12, Tactical Awareness) = 32 pts

    Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Smoke Grenades, Paramedic) = 28 pts
    Zuyong (Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Tactical Awareness) = 27 pts
    Zuyong (MK12, Tactical Awareness) = 32 pts

    Zuyong (Heavy Combi Rifle (10), Tactical Awareness) = 27 pts
    Zuyong (Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Tactical Awareness) = 27 pts
    Haidao (Multi-Sniper, MSV2, Mimetism, Sapper) = 1.5/41 pts

    Daoying LT2 (Boarding Shotgun, Hacking Device (UP: TeamPro)) = 0.5/29 pts

    300 total
    Trying to fill out an entire force with HI and take advantage of Tactical Awareness and NCO to keep the order count viable (15 orders and 2 LT orders). While on the surface this is a reasonable list it gives up midfield control and is very susceptible to hacking. There are some interesting options with moving fireteams composition around depending on mission or who is going first/second though.
     
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  13. Greysturm

    Greysturm Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with most of the updates proposed. It completely changes the core concepts of the army and cherry picks all the advantages from several factions without including the drawbacks that balanced them out. If your changes became real it would open a huge rift between IA and every other faction in the game . I think you should scale back the changes and avoid lore changes for the sake of justifying your loadouts.
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    In addition, this ends up taking away a lot of the 'Yu Jing' character out of the faction. And IA already has identity issues as it is.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well... my most pointed criticism I can give is that you've designed an army that's entirely made up of characters. Characters in Infinity doesn't get discounts, but they do get very weird profiles with lots of special weapons and skills. You have to let most units be simple - find a concept and then build the profiles with common weapons, particularly if we're talking about humans.

    Zuyong: Honestly, I don't subscribe to that these need to be made cheaper. Only reason I see to change them is to reflect a different army-wide design shift, such as removing one of the two pistols and adding grenades instead.

    Stat costs: From what I can tell, they are fairly easy. Except for ARM and BTS, they are +1 point per point, at 14 you start paying more, which is why Sun Tze is so incredibly expensive. If you want to take Tai Sheng to the same PH you changed Zuyong to, then add +1 points to her.

    Haidao: Honestly, I think removing MSV2 from them would be an enormous nerf. I'd much rather see Haidao be either heavy Bao or the designated cheap-skates HI. In addition, if I were to fiddle with the protections, I'd reduce ARM to 2 and then add 6 BTS and give them Climb+ to make them more space-worthy - protects a bit against debris, but radiation, heat/cold and suffocation are the biggest problems. Now, just imagine these bastards scurrying along the hull of a space ship to find a weak point to breach.

    Hulang: Climb+ seem to be the Yu Jing thing. Super-jump is non-existant after Shikami left.

    Daofei: Seems to not step on Hac Tao's toes much.

    Mowang: These are canonically night raid units, supposedly they sneak into the enemy compounds and start shooting once inside, which is why I suggest focusing more on stealth than making them into Gammas.
     
  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    If you want to fix IA, you need to get rid of skills like frenzy that let other factions get access to real HI without paying for it.
     
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  17. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    The proposed changes would make IA way too strong.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @BenMoss forgot to comment on the LuDuan.
    You need to remove Holo2 in order to FTO that one, this decreases the cost by around 3 points depending on if you keep Holo1 or not. Also keep in mind you write something about Albedo, but the LuDuan has MSV1!
     
  19. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Or at least force fireteams to suffer the effects of frenzy, it's not so hard to develop some rules for that. But I agree, the unfari exploit of frenzy troops that can link must be fixed.

    Not exactly. As explained in page 75 of 3rd Offensive in the general vision of Invincible Army, while they were created as an improved jungle fighting unit in the war theater of Paradiso, later their operative role became that of a unit to be deployed in hostile and/or hazardous environments. There's a slight mention to that in the first lines of the unit background too. Actually we already could ascertain that in the Novy Bangkok campaign, where players fielded Mowang units quite frequently in the dangerous Jiyuan Pit zones due to the Multiterrain skill giving enhanced mobility in the debris zone and allowing Mowang to ignore the flying rocks and the perils of wretched hull that caused so many (funny) casualties to the rest of units.

    The problem here is that it's dependant on special terrain rules of the scenario. And after losing the exclusivity of NCO big bad ass to the DaiYoukai the profile feels a bit lackluster. Personally I would add a HFT to the MultiRifle in order to promote that profile and I also thing redfury and spitfire version feel too redundant while lacking some antitank punch. I would swap the spitfire for a Feuerbach.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When playing the Gamma Feuerbach I always feel it is lacking punch - i.e. burst. It just doesn't hit reliability enough for the price and Gamma has FA1.

    I think the Flammenspeer and Akrylat-Kanone are to blame, partly because their cost is fairly high for a disposable weapon and partly because B1 is kind of terrible.

    Heavy Flamethrower, absolutely. I'd stick that on all profiles, but I'd favour AP Spitfire over a Feuerbach as not only does it mesh better with the unit, it also doesn't trample all over the Yan Huo's remit (now there's a unit that could use a Feuerbach over it's insanely costly double Missiles)
    Shifting the Mowang away from its skirmishing role and into something that shouod be done by the Yan Huo should be avoided. Instead Mowang's skirmishing role should be promoted, while preferably diverging ffrom the Kriza.
     
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