While Tunguska is now out for all to see, we can see that there's nothing that's actually all that new. Okay, there's plenty new, but there's nothing that's utterly ground breaking, rather it's much denser in combinations of previously known concepts. Mary combines two different hackers with a locust, puppeteers provide a similar but weaker protection than mono-combat group does, Hollow Men are quality heavy infantry that's incapable of CC or dodging and the puppets are largely a cheaper link team with the puppeteer as an added weakness. Tunguska, however, offer what might be a perfect storm for a sectorial that leans heavily on heavy infantry. It is more than possible to construct lists in Haqq, Aleph and a few others that mimic this problem, but with Tunguska this is heavily incentivised and as it stands at the moment Invincible Army doesn't have any realistic options to opt out of the hackability traits. To some extent this also applies to MO, but the effect I can see on MO is that it'll push those lists further in the direction of Specialist Order Sergeants (that is, a solution but not a very interesting solution); What IA is at the moment on a glance Let's preface this further with stating what Invincible Army currently is; a large number of standard military grade equipment profiles with little to no equipment outside of Tigers to offer asymmetrical gameplay with. Nearly all known units will come from a predictable direction using high burst ranged weapons on reliable platforms. Even the most asymmetrical unit, the Tiger, is a fairly standard medium infantry most notable for its elite stats and bog standard weapons. This isn't bad, but the army is lacking the diversity which dictates whether it'll be a good sectorial (new ISS) or a bad sectorial (old ISS) in pure performance. Predictability is bad. Assassins A large number of threats in Tunguska can be eliminated by a competent assassin. Be it an expensive assassin with smoke like Saito who can both exploit the relatively low CC values of Tunguska's most difficult threats such as Mary Problems or Puppeteers and Tunguska's complete lack of MSV2 or simply assassins that are merely really competent such as Ninjas or Nomads own Bandits. Possible solution: While new is more fun, simply having access to Ninjas for decent AVA of 2 would solve this problem. TR HMG Probably the item on the list that's going to be least Tunguska-oriented. IA's current known troops include a grand total of 0 AVA marker state snipers, 0 AVA smoke capable troops and 0 AVA MSV2 troops to exploit that smoke. This means that IA risks having to use HRMC or linked HMG in order to try and beat the odds against through larger number of dice and better BS against TR HMGs, and while that will work the risk of failure against a comparatively cheap model like that is going to be very high. Possible solutions: While, like above, Ninja are a solution, it's not a very good one since only the sniper is going to be somewhat efficient that that one is bogged down by its immense cost. Hac Tao HMG offers one of Yu Jing's strongest anti-TR pieces, but it's not something that you take casually. Access to Hsien is unlikely, though I can see IA getting a much cheaper MSV2-equipped model with a longer ranged weapon like the Kempeitai and I'm still hoping for a brawler HI with smoke grenades. Hacking Tunguska, Nomads and a lot of Haqq and Aleph lists are sufficiently hacker-dense lists that a Deflector B Tinbot isn't enough. You'll be going through repeaters offering low-WIP attacks that you can only "Dodge" against, eventually one will succeed and you'll have either a broken link or a member left behind in need of repairs. Possible solutions: With good access to Deflector, unlike MO, this might be something that IA will simply have to weather. Greater insistence on balanced boards where hiding repeaters isn't quite as possible is not an unreasonable demand. A Killer Hacker Shang-Ji or Zuyong is near mandatory for Hacking defense and for making support hackers even possible. Camouflage and Hiding Tunguska, Steel Phalanx, Ariadna in general, and a few others are able to present a large number of camo as well as visibility MOD. With no known sensor or MSV units in IA as well as a reasonable assumption that order count is going to be fairly low, IA absolutely must have effective ways of handling camo. Possible solutions: A new sensor-equipped unit is not at all unreasonable, nor is a more affordable MSV2 HI similar to above. Upgrading Shang-Ji flamethrower to a heavy flamethrower actually qualifies here as this allows Shang-Ji to make Intuitive Attacks against potential mines without having to face-tank a mine hit, plus it gives further incentive to use Shang-Ji at very little to no extra cost. Weibing is a solution and not a terrible solution, but unless it's allowed as the fifth member of fireteams it's generally going to be very inefficient. Rui Shi is also a solution, but it's a solution that Yu Jing relies upon regardless of sectorial, list, opponent, etc. and frankly I consider the heavy reliance on Rui Shi to get stuff done a strong indication of lack of options more than anything else (and tangentially a need to rethink Bao Troops). This is the hardest nut to crack. The missing grenades This one deserves a category of its own. As IA is at the moment, it is lacking grenades. Offensive grenades and defensive grenades. Offensive to deal with threats like hidden Repeaters and Puppeteers and defensive to allow troops to get past difficult ARO threats. Zhanshi can fix this slightly, with their LGL profile, but it is highly inefficient both in terms of its extortionate SWC cost and that it's going to be on what's typically a defensive link team and is lacking the range to deal with the threats necessary. Possible solutions: Zuyong Light Grenade Launcher profile similar to Wu Ming, or access to low AVA Wu Ming linkable with Zuyong or other troops. Another solution is an indirect weapons platform with heavy grenade launchers or a brawler troop with grenades as well as close range weaponry for skirmishing purposes. The lack of doctors and engineers Not a big surprise unless you're really new to the Yu Jing forums. While it's probable Zhanshi versions will become the designated doctors and engineers, whether these will be linkable is uncertain - going strictly by the naming conventions they are going to be Zhanshi-linkable, but I wouldn't take that for granted. Regardless, it's going to be doctors and engineers who are, just like the current known units, going to be troops who start running on their heels in the back lines, but unlike the rest of the line up they won't have much survivability. In summary What I'd like to see; Ninjas. A TO infiltrator that can be used as an expensive one-shot solution for a critical model. Wuxia. A brawler with heroic attributes, ODD, mechanized or high level forward deployment and very close range weapons such as various exotic grenades, SMG and/or Natural Born Warrior. A more over-all competent but less mobile than Shikami, short range and no marker state compared to Daofei, and less... perfect... than Achilles, but so much larger than life than Locusts. MSV2 on a profile. Shang-Ji Spitfire isn't a bad choice, which leads to it being 47/2 in cost. Half-way between Hsien and Rui Shi, but unlike Bao, Shang-Ji are probably going to be more comfortably linkable and offer an appreciable increase in attributes. Killer Hacker. Wuxia isn't a bad place for a Killer Hacker, otherwise Zuyong or again Shang-Ji. Zuyong Gongcheng, Zuyong Yisheng. These are Zuyong for linkability but highly controllable AVA in vanilla. Reconnaissance subsection. This means Guilang and Daofei. Guilang are key to playing the infowar game in Yu Jing as well as providing some decent sniper potential. I see no reason why this subsection can't be in both Army sectorials.
Given that we know this probably isn't happening I still stand by my guess that they'll outsource and borrow some of Aleph's stuff for the mid field skirmishing/support like NCA. That or we won't get any and it'll be a really trash sectorial. Take your pick I guess.
Strictly for gameplay, this is fine. Nagas or Dasyu can more than adequately fill this hole, where Nagas are preferable due to having Minelayer. However, if we're talking about AVA 1, it'll be a tight fit.
Literally the last thing I want for the new Future of the Yu Jing army model is aleph shit. Would be so out of place and lazy.
I like the OP but I wouldn’t bank on ODD. This is technology YJ simply doesn’t possess and if I remember correctly, the Shikami ran on basically the same thermooptic specs as a ninja does.
I really wouldn't pin any hopes on getting a ninja in IA. It just doesn't make sense to me from a background standpoint and IA doesn't feel like it's going to be a CC competent sectorial. If they do get a ninja or an equivalent then let it be a welcome surprise but please don't expect it because if there isn't one the disappointment is going to distract from what else is in there. Whilst it's a precious resource command tokens for co-ordinated orders are one decent way of tackling TR bots. It can only react to 1 target and IA should be able to bring several reliable ranged pieces to any list. As you mention, high burst with high BS. One thing IA is unlikely to lack are solid troops with good BS. As you mentioned, the Yan Huo HMRC is one relatively good option as it can afford to engage outside of 32" and still hit on 11's (whilst the TR bot will be hitting on 5's), crits can still ruin your day that is almost unavoidable without camo and surprise shot. (Which we may yet get.) This problem is not one I'm concerned about even with what little we know. Hacking I am worried about, although the likely flexible link options with hopefully a lot of choice with deflector level 2 tinbots (backed up by fairy dust maybe?) ought to help significantly reduce the risks of running HI heavy. There are quite a lot of killer hacker options now so I would be quite surprised if we didn't have 1 new option for hackers. Camo and hiding I am terrified of because I just don't see IA getting much to deal with it. Sensor would be my most desired option though. I'm not entirely sure about the grenades thing but that may be because I just don't have any luck with them (outside of smoke and even then...) but I will agree that the absence from what we currently know could be cause for concern depending on what else is going to be in there. I would very much like to see more doctor and engineer options, although we do currently have a number of paramedics (not a reliable option but they sort of are, technically, able to perform the same job) so my hopes are firmly fixed on wanting another engineer.
@Zewrath the effect is more important than the technology. It is possible to construct something that performs a similar job to what I described with merely Mimetism, but I think smoke grenades is much more warranted then (and nit a bad concept) @SKOZZOKONZ I agree it's preferable having in-house units, especially when those units exists, but it is more important to provide that option than to not get Aleph units, IMO. @REND I'm not banking on Ninjas, I'd prefer to have a new TO skirmisher that aligns more with IA's concept while remaining 1 wound. However Ninjas are here and they no longer have a home, IA might be the new home for Ninjas. Preferably Ninjas also get a redesign to diverge from the Nipponese unit with the same name. Grenades is increasingly becoming relevant with more units or key items hiding behind walls and operating with proxies. Puppetactica is just the latest in this trend. I find it odd that LGLs aren't more common in an army sectorial - in my opinion they should be similarly common to shotguns.
@Mahtamori I'm not surprised LGLs aren't common in sectorial lists, it's bad enough with the ones already available. This is a difference of opinion but speculative fire is one of those rules that opens up a useful tool to solve some situations but can potentially become oppressive when abused. Much like guided ammunition for those (very small number) of lists that can effectively pull it off. My most recent game (using ISS) did feature one aspect that I did find comforting about the fears from enemy hacking. I had one normal hacker up against an combined army evo, assault and killer hackers. He had no success with hacking at all. Deflector level2 with either fairy dust, firewall mods or one of the Evo supportware programs really helps links against enemy hacking and hackers hidden within such links can be really tough to remove. If we get flexible link options with potentially repeater bots (similar to the Ikari company for instance) then the option of a core with repeaters plus a tinbot and a haris with some type of hacker who is also protected by a tinbot, it becomes a very powerful board control presence.
@REND don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I find it odd they aren't common in sectorials, I'm saying I find it odd that they're uncommon in military sectorials, and since most sectorials in game are ambiguous security forces with individual army units rather an actual proper standing army the way Invincible Army is, I would expect IA to be more liberal than usual in deploying explosive devices with missile launchers and grenade launchers being rather ubiquitous profiles.
Judging by current US Army deployment, grenade launchers are roughly twice as common as shotguns. The Squad Leaders usually carry a shotgun for opening doors (breaking hinges and locks), while there are two grenade launchers in their squad (with US Marines, it's 3 GLs per squad). Agreed. Though this would require some adjustments to the usual SWC. I mean, a modern US Army squad can bring one rifle+shotgun, two squad automatics (read: Molotok or Red Fury, maybe HMG if they're carrying an M240 or 7.62 Minimi), two rifle+LGLs, a ML, a marksman rifle or sniper rifle, and two dudes with rifles (usually to carry ammo for either the squad automatics or the ML). All of them can be carrying hand grenades to throw, and they may be carrying LAW rockets (read DEP or Pzfaust) instead of the ML. Subbing Kazaks for 'Murricans: Ariadna ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) LINE KAZAK AP HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 23) LINE KAZAK Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 13) LINE KAZAK Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 17) LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) LINE KAZAK AP HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 23) LINE KAZAK Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 13) LINE KAZAK Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) 6 SWC | 132 Points Pretty sure that when you deploy an entire brick of dudes in power armor, 'subtlety' and 'deniability' got chucked out the airlock.
I hope for Ninjas as well. It would give IA a killer hacker which is rather important to have when fielding so many HI. IA has to have some weaknesses so the lack of LGL and smoke might be it.
Man building my list for a tournament upcoming this hits real hard. Not only does almost every list have the 33 point kuang shi bundle but a 50 point bundle of rui shi + at least a zhanshi hacker and some shaolin.
This is rather bad since it means Yu Jing has become predictable. Which is not what you want to be unless your Pano (whos whole design philosophy is being as bland and predictable as possible and winning anyway).
Guys, if YJ is predictable now it means it was also predictable before as we lost nothing according to those awesome CB statistics. I dunno why you worry.
Post Tunguska I really want invincible army to get counterintelligencia and weibing to get stempler zondified.
Given how badly the Yanjing and ISS are holding the idiot ball in the fluff right now there is no way we get Counterintelligence. You don't miss every other sovereign nation plus your own armed forces preparing to declare open war on you and qualify for counterintelligence.
I would imagine counterintelligencia to represent secrecy, control over leakage of accurate internal information very suitable for Tunguska. But no matter those are the transferable new shinies that caught my eye, stuff I would like to play, there's really no fluff justification for it in my mind. On the other hand a new idiot ball equipment could be fun, might be the best way to make the shang ji superior. :D
Yes, having a KHD somewhere is going to be just about mandatory. Unless someone has a better way of dealing with Assault Hackers? I can live with a lack of smoke. See also PanO. Lack of Speculative Fire, though, that's dangerous. Try facing Tunguska without it. As much as I don't want to "like" this comment, I totally agree with it. There is no fucking way YJ's intelligence service (singular) can qualify for the Counterintelligence skill after a fuckup on the order of the Uprising. Uprising was not like missing 9-11 or the Pearl Harbor attack (we had a little warning, not enough to save the ships because it arrived Saturday evening in DC). This was literally like not noticing the warning signs of the American Civil War! You throw it at someone else and they can't spend any orders (or even) ARO but throw it to someone else?
I'd be happy with either tbh. Actually if memory serves me correctly IA is largely deployed on Paradiso as an anti CA force much Shock Army from Pan-O currently is. They have AVA2 Nagas, plus some attached ASS greeks to serve as hackers. Could be another fluff justification to see these sorts of things in IA as support/recon roles.
While true, I'd prefer a new YJ unit instead of being like a PanO sectorial. For the express purpose of being different.
