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Initiative Roll

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Kras, May 12, 2019.

  1. Kras

    Kras New Member

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    Want to make sure after a recent debate about what happens following the initiative roll just how things proceed.

    Player A wins the roll
    Player A then selects either to
    Keep Initiative selecting to play first or second.
    Or.
    Keep Deployment and choose table sides and deployment order.

    If this is correct is there ever a situation you would win the roll and not choose to keep deployment ?

    Thanks for any insight.
     
    Wolf likes this.
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    That is correct.

    The player who won the roll chooses initiative or deployment, and makes the relevant decisions about that choice immediately. The other player then makes their choice.

    There is no waiting to decide.

    There are several ITS missions which favour going first. Certain lists might also favour going first and are less sensitive about deployment. Eg. JSA with oniwabans, or a list with strategos and impersonators.
     
  3. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Without being glib, yes - the situation where you want to control the turn order more than you want to control which side the players are on. Just as @Alphz says here
    And all other things being equal, the reverse could easily be true. Missions that are concerned with which player has physical control of an objective at the end of the game tend to favour the player that goes second.

    Factors for choosing deployment over initiative include the asymmetry of the table scenery, the units in your list, and how you personally want to play them. It's a key part of Infinity's game design, and a really critical part of the game.

    A good way to work with it is to play the same mission against the same opponent, both keeping the same lists. It's hard to persuade tabletop geeks to practice together, instead of just trying to outsmart each other, but it's tremendously instructive if you can set it up.
     
    #3 Wolf, May 12, 2019
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
    DaRedOne and Alphz like this.
  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Lists / players that are good at Alpha striking often want to go first.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That being said, I've always thought that choosing initiative should also choose deployment order.

    'I choose to go second' is often one of the dumbest things you can say in Infinity.
     
  6. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    There are definitely missions where you might want to go second, such as ones with end of round / end of game scoring that can be easier to control that way. However, I guess even when I want to go second, if I win the initiative roll I try to force that by picking deployment and making it so that my opponent really doesn't want to give me both second deployment and first turn.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To do so, you choose to force your opponent to deploy first, thus applying pressure on him: either go first in a mission which favours the last player, or grant both Deployment AND initiative to the enemy.

    Not to mention one side can be more suited for defense, and by claiming that one with a defensive list you force your opponent to either focus on defense on a weak position, or to commit fully without backup...

    Seems little, but it's one of the first hits to the opponent's mind in this game, even before the game starts... and forces to think there.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's kinda my point: choosing deployment and forcing your opponent to deploy first basically goes 'well you're going first'.

    By choosing deployment you usually also effectively decide who goes first / second.

    Whereas tying Deploy First / Go First together you make it completely independent of deciding sides.
     
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  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    No, you just basically choose to go second (except with players who want really to trade huge tactical advantage for playing second even if they deploy first) by choosing deployment. If you want to alpha strike, you have to take initiative and go first. There is no other option. If you choose deployment and deploy first, you'll play second at any game the scenario doesn't favor it. Plus, a lot of top players are known for their defensive gameplay and don't want to play first if they can help it. Forcing them to play first is the best way to force them to make some holes in their bunker even before using an order.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It's not a hard and fast rule for me to never choose to go second but I place a lot of value in deploying second. Deploying second and going first is such a powerful combo. I'm not going to gift that to my opponent by choosing to go second if I win the roll.

    If my opponent gifts it to me and I don't think I can exploit their deployment/list to kill points and orders. I use my second deployment and first turn to focus on the mission. After all, I get to decide which approach will work best before putting my troopers on the table.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean "choose deployment order" or do you possibly mean "dictate deployment order"?

    If I choose to go first and also get to choose deployment order, that means my addiction to going first would only get worse because I get to choose you to deploy blind while I can optimise my first turn. This is why I think you meant "dictate" as then it would be a case of that the player going first also deploys first, regardless if they chose to go first or not, meaning no player would ever go second and have to deploy blind.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Sure. But if you want to force them to go first you should (to my mind) need to choose Initiative and go "you deploy first and go first, you get to choose deployment".

    Instead - as you say - by choosing deployment you basically choose turn order in addition to which side they Deploy on. Which means your opponent (realistically) doesn't get the benefit of choosing Initiative (the option to 'choose to go second is so bad as to practically not exist').

    This suggests, assuming the current system is balanced, that being able to choose to go first is of equivalent worth to both choosing to go second AND simultaneously choosing deployment. This only makes sense if, on the whole, there's a first turn advantage.

    That's actually a kind of persuasive argument. I still don't like the structure aesthetically but that balance argument does make me more reticent to screw with it.