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Impetuous Order, Super-Jump and Smoke Grenade dodge Question

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Gero, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so here it is.

    McMurrough activates with his Impetuous Order he is in contact with a wall he can jump over with his Super-Jump skill.
    He must do this, however, upon landing he generated an ARO to a Sniper Trooper who declares shoot as his ARO.

    Can McMurrough attack with a smoke grenade to dodge the shot in a FTF roll?
    Taking into account Jump here becomes a short movement skill due to Super Jump, Jump + Attack does not seem a valid skill declaration, in the second bullet point it says.

    "Impetuous Orders allow only a number of fixed combinations of Common Skills, as indicated by the Impetuous Order Chart. During an Impetuous Order, you cannot declare Skills or combinations of Skills not in the Impetuous Order Table."

    Airborne Deployment
    Move + Activate (Activate + Move)
    Move + Attack (Attack + Move)
    Move + Dodge (Dodge + Move)
    Move + Idle (Idle + Move)
    Move + Move
    Jump
    Climb
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    RAW no, Jump + BS Attack is not allowed as an Impetuous declaration.

    Note, nobody* plays it that way. Everyone* plays it that Super Jump allows you to declare Jump + CC Attack/BS Attack/Dodge/Idle. I highly recommend that you do too.

    * That I am aware of.
     
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  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Why is this not FAQed yet? It doesn't seems logical at all, and it puts impetuous models with advanced movement skill in a disadvantage if the RAW is enforced.
    It would be as easy as adding. "If the impetuous trooper have any skill or equipment that let him use the common abilities Jump or Climb as short movement skills, they may use them instead of the common ability "move" in the Legal combination of skills table."
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's not an issue for Climbing Plus because they can declare Move on a vertical surface.

    Basically, for a long time Infinity has run on the fact that a community of people have understood how the game has been intended to be played and have played it that way despite what RAW may be. This grew out of the fact that the RAW English version of N1/N2 was (reportedly) unplayable. This is increasingly no longer the case.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest, what defines a model as "climbing"? If a model deploys on a vertical surface, they haven't declared Climb skill, does that mean they can declare Dodge or BS Attack as long as they avoid trying to move?
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Climb
    I think that covers it.
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb.

    This has, with the exception of ladders, been read as being universally applicable IE. It does not rely on the skill Climb having been declared.

    Admittedly, thanks to the diagram, it gets a touch weird with respect to ladders (it usually being played that you can declare BS Attacks and Dodge while on a ladder).

    See my earlier point

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/prone-and-ladders.590/

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/holding-to-ladders-and-shooting.26877/
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's tangential, but reading the climb skill as directed does answer a question from the weekend's big tournament; i.e. you're still climbing and can't declare BS Attacks while on a ladder. The more on topic to this would be that moving on ladders has the potential to possibly block the use of some skill combinations, more precisely (and reading it as literally as possible) you can only declare Move+Move if your first Move doesn't clear the ladder since Idle is not allowed while Climbing
     
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  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    It's true, climbing plus just let use move to that, my bad. But the other case should get fixed, it's not good having too many of these "common agreement" rules, specially when fixing it is as easy as a line in the next FAQ.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It really doesn't tell you that though, look at the diagram ;)
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What diagram?
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The one showing a model shooting while on a ladder (General Movement Rules, Ladders and Stairways).
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm actually down with stopping McMurrough from doing that. Would slow him down.
     
  14. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    But don't forget superjump is "optional", so no superjump has to be declared with impetous order. You will do jump if is the shortest path, if don't you only walks.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    But even with that it's a pretty weak excuse for that rule, climbing plus and other optional skills works just fine in an impetuous order.

    And also thematically is odd. Impetuous try to represent a frenzy model that really want to reach the other guy. But that suddenly forgets that he can just jump over the building AND rip his ass in the same order... so he just jumps and let him get a free shot :/
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I'm willing to trust that that diagram shows the unit shooting and not showing it getting shot. Particularly since the climbing diagrams were outright showing breaking the rules until a recent faq errata and that jump diagrams show models jumping through (not around) scenery when jumping downwards.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I get you. I'm just pointing out that it's not as clear as it should be. Last time we discussed this I used the diagram to 'prove' that you could BS Attack while on a ladder. I'm no longer so certain.
     
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  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    When you use a ladder you are not climbing but using the move skill to move up that vertical surface, it's kind of similar than when you are using climbing plus.
    I'd say it working as climbing plus (you can attack or ARO but get no benefice for cover) would make sense. But the stair part is not detailed or in a FAQ/example, so it's not so clear.