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Impetuous - No "Double back"

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WiT?, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I have no comment on dodge movement, other than that dodge-rolling backwards would clearly violate the spirit of the rule.

    I assume there is no restriction on direction of movement for impetuous troops outside the impetuous phase, but that could just be previous edition experience clouding my judgement.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @toadchild @ijw has previously confirmed that the restrictions on Impetuous movement are only confined to the Impetuous Phase. It's on the forums somewhere: I already annoyed him with this question once. :P
     
  3. Infinity Gamer

    Infinity Gamer New Member

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    Not sure if bumping is a thing but I'm pretty keen on some clarity around whether impetuous movement needs to take the shortest possible route, whether it be to enemy DZ or closest enemy trooper within ZOC.

    Currently, the only specifics on the route are that you can't double-back. Couple of problems with this and other interactions:

    1. Let's say rule gets amended to be fastest possible route - if the fastest route involves doubling back what then?
    2. Let's say the enemy trooper you were engaged with dies and your new requirement is to head to enemy DZ, but you need to double back?
    3. What if an enemy trooper has moved into your ZOC but the fastest route to it means doubling back - are you forced to take a longer viable route?
    4. Would you be able to draw any point of the enemy DZ and head to that or must you also head to the closest point of the enemy DZ (so long as you're not doubling back)?
    5. Beserk can be activated in the impetuous phase, would the impetuous movement rules impact how this is used?
    6. Frenzy results in a unit becoming impetuous so they'd have to follow these rules from that point on?
    7. With the current rule wording it doesn't specify that you're trying to get into silhouette contact with the nearest enemy trooper, only "an" enemy trooper. Can I select any enemy in that case and head to them?
    8. 'Go towards' the Enemy DZ is vague enough to be fulfilled so long as you've ended closer - meaning a horizontal move advancing you 1mm meets this objective (so long as you've also ended up closer to an enemy trooper).
    Would a more appropriate structure to the rule be:

    Effects
    ► During the Turn's Impetuous Phase, the player may activate each Impetuous Trooper once, without spending an Regular, Irregular or Lieutenant Order.
    The Impetuous activation has all the same characteristics as an Order expenditure for the purpose of interactions (AROs, equipment, special skills, etc).
    ► During the Turn's tactical Phase, the player will place an Impetuous Token next to every Trooper with this Special Skill. This token will be removed when the Trooper is activated, or at the enf of the Impetuous phase for any trooper that has not been activated.
    ► Impetuous activations only allow a fixed set of Skill combinations:
    ► Move + Attack (or Attack + Move).
    ► Move + Dodge (or Dodge + Move).
    ► Move + Idle (or Idle + Move).
    ► Move + Move.
    ► Jump.
    ► Climb.
    ► Airborne Deployment Skills.​
    ► When declaring Move, Jump, or Climb, the Trooper must always move the full corresponding MOV value, attempting to perform the first of these options that the Trooper can complete:
    ► 1. Enter Silhouette contact with an the nearest Enemy Trooper during this move.
    ► 2. Go towards the nearest point of the Enemy Deployment Zone without doubling back from the movement's starting position.​
    Troopers must take the most direct, viable route to achieve either outcome.
    ► Troopers may only move a shorter distance if they reach Silhouette contact with an Enemy or a Special Terrain area hinders their Movement or forces them to declare Jump or Climb.
    ► An Impetuous Trooper that has not been deployed on the gaming table due to an Airborne Deployment Special Skill may use their Impetuous activation to Deploy during the Impetuous Phase of their player’s Turn.
    ► Impetuous Troopers cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs.
    ► Players in Retreat! situation do not carry out the Impetuous Phase during their Turn.
    ► Impetuous Troopers cannot enter Marker States (Camouflaged, Impersonation...), or any other States that say so.
    If the Trooper is or becomes Impetuous (due to having the Frenzy Special Skill or any other effect), when they activate in the Impetuous Phase they are allowed to use Berserk.

    EDIT: I'd added new bits in green but hadn't made removals clear. Have included elements to be removed in red.
    EDIT 2: Taking the most direct route shouldn't be a third condition but a seperate element of the rule. CB have written the number points as the player needing to try and achieve 1 first then 2. In either circumstance the shortest route should be taken. Added 'Troopers must...' to make it a sentence.
    EDIT 3: Added @toadchild 's suggestion​
     
    #43 Infinity Gamer, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I would add to the bullets under allowed skill combinations:
    - Those Entire Order skills that explicitly allow their use in the impetuous phase.

    Then add the appropriate wording to the Berserk skill.

    Hell, make "impetuous" a skill tag and use that to allow skills in this phase.
     
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  5. Infinity Gamer

    Infinity Gamer New Member

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    Beserk would be a good one to add to the allowed actions in the Impetuous phase.

    If a model has Climbing Plus or Super jump and Impetuous I'd assume they'd still get the Climb + XXX or Jump + XXX options?
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    As written, no.

    Which only affects Superjump because C+ can simply declare Move + X even on vertical terrain.
     
  7. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Last bullet point:

    • If the Trooper is or becomes Impetuous (due to having the Frenzy Special Skill or any other effect), when they activate in the Impetuous Phase they are allowed to use Berserk.
     
  8. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    What if there's more than one and they're at the same distance away?
     
  9. Infinity Gamer

    Infinity Gamer New Member

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    Both would be valid targets so you could choose either. Just like if you were playing Power Pack and were equidistant from both enemy deployment zones. Heading towards either would meet the requirements of the rule.
     
  10. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    I would still like to know what to do while in the enemy DZ. Hopefully we get some sort of answer.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Came up at my first N4 event this last weekend. It'd be good to have a solid answer.
     
  12. huttyman

    huttyman New Member

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    it's clear for me now with other threat about impetouse unit treat as normal unit when with regular order. So with this example impetous phase you cannot move (except climbing or jump) if you want to move you need to wait untill normal regular turn. What do you think?
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think that it's not clear at all.
     
  14. kghamilton

    kghamilton Active Member

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    To me it's pretty simple.

    Doubling back is there to prevent a player moving 2 inches back and 2 inches forward, gaining zero net movement. This should not prevent a player moving backwards to get around an obstacle if the intention is to ultimately be in a position forward of where they started.

    Wording could use clearing up but also apply "don't be a dick" etiquette and you should be fine.

    Simples
     
  15. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    "Don't be a dick" etiquette is, unfortunately, not an enforceable rule for tournaments, so different wording and/or a clear, concise clarification is needed.

    The problem with rewriting Impetuous is that any wording that gives the player a choice can be open to abuse. Don't allow moving towards your own deployment zone? Incoming side-to-side movement or zig-zagging.

    I think what they intended to say is that you have to move in as straight a line as possible; no going back an forth. Unfortunately the technical description of that may be somewhat difficult.

    A way they could put it is that the movement "must be towards the enemy deployment zone, except for the purposes of moving around terrain obstacles, and ending that movement closer to the enemy deployment zone than one started," with examples showing that while you can choose, for example, which side of a building you want to go around, you otherwise move straight towards the enemy DZ.

    Less freedom, but clearer and harder to cheese.
     
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  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    How about:
    "Must move in a straight line between its current position ("A") and enemy DZ ("B"). If the model is already in the enemy DZ, it must move in a straight line towards "B" defined as the position of the nearest non-Marker state / HD / Embryo, etc., enemy model.

    Should the direct straight line between A and B be blocked on the current level by obstacles, Terrain types or drops, the model must clear them by either Moving, Climbing, Climbing+, Jumping or Super Jumping, whichever method or combination of methods results in a shorter path in inches once all relevant Skills (e.g. Terrain: type) are applied."
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I still think this is about as good as it could get without adding several paragraphs and examples to deal with "edgier" cases.

    It's succinct and closes off most avenues for "abuse" (read: someone not doing what the rules intends).
     
  18. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    I don't think it is much of an edge case when we have impetuous troops with Parachustist (Dep. Zone) (Duroc) and combat jump(YUANYUAN). Steel Phalanx has Combat jump troops with Frenzy. It really is not that uncommon to be an edge case.

    Edit: just realizing this is the no double back one, not what to do in a DZ one. lol
     
    #58 Stampysaur, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! I was simply leaving myself some breathing room, as just because I couldn't think of any cases off the top of my head that this doesn't solve doesn't mean someone else won't :).

    I addressed the fact that it still leaves open questions for other things in my original post about it ;).
     
  20. kghamilton

    kghamilton Active Member

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    At the moment the way it's written, it gives the players agency to move where they want. If they wish to zig zag then it's up to them, long as they move the full distance.

    I moved a Mutt 4" along my DZ which is legal because I still ended my move closer to the enemy DZ than where I started, and it wasn't regarded as a "dick move" because that was also the direction of where an enemy TAG was.

    Understand it's open to abuse but I believe they are edge cases and heavily depend on the table layout. Again, the double back is there to prevent players moving net 0" and so far I haven't seen anyone do anything with impeteous moves that could be disputed.

    Regarding what happens once you reach the enemy DZ, agreed it needs a FAQ but we have just been playing they can move in whatever direction they wish, as by the time you are in the enemy DZ it is more likely you're within ZoC of an enemy anyway.
     
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