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Impetuous Move Direction Questions

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Vanderbane, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    So I don’t want to rehash the whole mount/dismount issue for impetuous bikers. It’s been done a lot, and I think we are collectively pretty happy with that part of things.

    But I do want to address two questions about moving direction to a target when multiple choices might exist.

    First, closest troop is based on number of orders away, not on distance, as per this:

    Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 9.53.19 PM.png

    Which by the text would seem to suggest that if you had two targets that were within the same integer number of orders away (as estimated by you and your opponent given that you can’t measure), you could move towards either of them.

    But the drawing would seem to suggest that isn’t the case (that you have to move towards the nearest enemy by distance, even if both are reachable in a single order). Is this to say that distance is the tie breaker for troops that are the same number of orders away? One of the key reasons I don’t know what the rule is here is that the figure above is either not to scale or misleading; if you count the movement path dots, it amuses me that as drawn the path is farther to the green check-marked target (11 dots) than the top left red X (9 dots).

    Second, if I have a target that is, say, about 6 inches away around a corner and I’m on a bike, and my opponent and I agree that my bike trooper should be able to reach on a single order even if dismounted, am I obliged to stay on the bike? The way that would work out is either:

    A: Yes, you must. Stay on bike, move 8” (assume a desperado), only move 6” into contact with the target around the corner, draw relevant AROs, second short skill.

    or

    B: No, you can still reach within 1 order so you can dismount. Dismount (for 1 inch), move 4” to the edge of the building (for the sake of this example, lets say still out of LoF from the target) draw AROs (which would not include getting shot or stabbed unlike in option A), then do the second short skill as allowable by Fury rules.

    My RAI feeling is obviously A, but is B still consistent with RAW?
     
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  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    #2 solkan, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We've had a very important FAQ since then, and this FAQ goes completely against both some facts that were established in those threads and the spirit of those replies. I'm talking about the "Impetuous must jump FAQ", which strongly indicates that an Impetuous trooper must always choose the shortest, fastest, path, even if there is a technically legal other option.
     
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  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    That's weird. I downloaded the 1.5 FAQ, I find no evidence of that question and answer.
     
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  5. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    @solkan thanks, familiar with that thread first thread - the second is a dead link for me.

    I agree that @Teslarod gives an example in line with my second question in that first, and looks like @psychoticstorm backs up the idea that you can only dismount if doing so gets you there faster (which is to say in fewer orders than staying on the bike - same number of orders isn't enough). If there's an update to the FAQ that says otherwise, I'd like to know.

    My question is if we have to choose the shortest, fastest path as @Mahtamori suggests (and I think this is correct) how do we weight that? For instance, look at the image in the OP. If the trooper jumps over that wall (assume its S2 in height), directly at the trooper to his right, is that legal? Is it required? It looks to be fine in terms of distance, and makes the path shorter.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Damn it, I was sure that was officially answered -.-;; Please don't tell me I'm remembering a passage from the unofficial FAQ
     
  7. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I copy/pasted the wrong link for the second link above. I meant to paste this one:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/impetuous-order.23982/#post-118119
    Anyway, remember that the text says "by the most direct route possible". If that black terrain block in the diagram was S2 in height, you'd declare a Move and vault directly over it instead of going around it.

    You'd have to get a really weird terrain situation going for jumping into base contact to be more direct than what you achieve by declaring Move. Even if you get something like a planter that you decided to use Jungle for involved, trying to Jump directly through a Jungle planter fails (and stops short).

    Pretty much Jump doesn't come into things until you're able to bypass bridges, or dealing with the unfortunate "You're on a rooftop, there's a guy on the street below you" situation.
     
  8. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough - I meant just more that S2. Like this:

    Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 11.53.53 PM.png I don't think it'd be that odd a terrain situation. If it took me 6" to go around vs this jump to get into base contact, am I forced to jump?
     
  9. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    If the barrier in this diagram is S2, it would be both drawn out of scale and there would be no point in declaring Jump to cross it--you'd just use Vault to cross it with a Move.

    If that barrier is taller than S2, then you're declaring a parabolic jump and you'd have to measure the whole arc to see whether it was actually short enough. If that diagram's in scale, a 6" jump may leave you short.

    Because, to be honest, if I had to make a bet I'd put money on the solution to the Jump issue for Impetuous is going to be that you aren't allowed to use Falling at all when calculating paths. If you include a Jump, it's from ground to ground within your movement allowance unless there are no other alternatives.
     
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  10. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    If you can get there in a single move skill you don't need to jump or climb.
     
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  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    That's an excellent solution to an otherwise hairy problem.
     
  12. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough @toadchild , if I can get there in one move skill vs a full turn jump, the argument is easy. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm also not talking about including falling in the calculation.

    @solkan , I think were talking past each other, and it's probably because I'm mixing my examples for bike and non-bike troopers, which is getting weird (apologies). I'll try to clean it up.

    As in the image I posted from the jump page on the wiki in post #8:

    Let's say I have an S2 trooper with 4-4 move on one side of a 2" wall. That wall extends about 3 inches left and right (in and out of the plane of the image), and has an enemy trooper on the other side. So when you and I look at it on the table, we agree it's (probably) 1 order worth of move skills (two short move skills) to walk around it on the surface and get into base contact, or I could jump over the wall. At least as drawn, I don't think falling enters into such a move, and even if it did, if I end my move distance in such a way that I would make base contact (which as discussed in FAQ 1.1 is silhouette volume contact) in the air and then fall remaining in base contact, the fall isn't what's making the contact, no?

    The other half of this is of course what if that wall is a little longer to the left and right (in and out of the plane of the image). At what point do we decide move vs. jump? because if our estimate is off and it's, say, 8 & 1/4" to go around on (which ends up being longer than two short move skills), but we only find that out after we measure, do we slingshot it back and retroactively decide he has to jump?
     
  13. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    See "The other player declared Engage, so I put the base of their model on the wall I standing next to."
    See also my above post concerning including Falling in the path taken by the impetuous model.

    If declare a Jump to a position where your base is not fully supported, then you're using Falling to calculate your Impetuous move.
     
    #13 solkan, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You are. [emoji14]
     
  15. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    So, by that logic, if a model was going to fall a quarter inch, but be in base contact, vs. take a path along the surface that took 1 or 2 more orders of moving, you would vote along the surface? Would you only walk around if it was one more order, but not 2?

    That just doesn't seem right to me. The metric is what puts you next to the model in the shortest number of orders, with the tiebreaker of shortest distance (at least for model selection). Per the rules text, you must jump or climb if it shortens the route (where I think shorter route is defined in terms of orders).The only argument I have seen on not counting fall distance stipulates they won't take an obviously lethal fall, but that's not what we are talking about here.

    So I think I am on board with the idea you walk around if you and your opponent agree the trooper can likely get into contact within the same number of orders (because jumping would not shorten the route). But if it is going to take more orders, or you think it might take more (because no pre-measuring), I think you have to jump even if there is a possibility of a fall, as long as it seems likely that it gets you in base contact faster.

    By analogy, I have heard/seen it argued that desperados must dismount when both the bike and the target are in difficult terrain and you think that extra inch of dismount might shave a order off of base contact distance. Do we not count that extra inch in the same way we don't count any extra distance from a fall?
     
  16. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, man. This is all pretty edge casey.

    I think the language of the rule is actually pretty clear if you interpret "route" to be a declared movement path.

    I don't think it is reasonable to consider involuntary movement, i.e. falling, as part of a declared movement path.

    If a "route" is a declared movement path, then fewest number of Orders is implicit in the term anyway, and further clarification would technically not be necessary.

    Whichever is the shortest movement path the trooper can use to get closest to an enemy trooper is the movement path you use, regardless of whatever skill needs to be declared. You just measure the distance.

    And falling distance is simply not part of a declared movement path, RAW. Falling is a consequence of a declared movement path ending at a position in which the model's base is not supported by terrain.
     
  17. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    @MindwormGames Sure, this entire forum is questions that come up on the margins of playing the game. I find that once or twice a game, there’s some discussion about which target is “closer” for an impetuous move; usually that’s easily decided, but given that we’ve had countless debates about the withertos and wherefores in these boards, I think it’s worth pursuing (insofar as any of these rules discussions are, which is another topic best discussed with our therapists).

    My declared movement path is to jump over the wall and land in base to base with the opponents unit. In this example, you (as my opponent) and I (as the active player) look at the options available. If we think both options will get my impetuous trooper to your unit in the same number of Orders, then I declare a short skill move (you only jump/climb if it’ll get you there faster). If instead we think that running around the wall is likely longer than a full order of movement (8 inches), and we think that by jumping the wall it’s likely I would land in base to base, then I think I have to jump.

    Take another example, where we are running at a target that we estimate is probably three orders away around a long winding wall, versus a jump that would take me over the wall and be within an inch or two (less than a full order of move away, for a total of two orders of movement. A Jump and a move). Surely we think you’d jump in that case, on the basis that it is a reduced distance in orders, even if doing so might result in a (non-lethal) fall? Why would the above be different?

    If the reality is different than my declared path (and I can only jump over the wall but not quite to the ground), how would we know before declaration? We can’t pre-measure for a host of reasons, so we have to estimate and agree. If it turns out our estimate is wrong, either on its own or in comparison to the other path (which we’ll never know because we don’t measure all the paths in contention), I still have to go with that declared path of travel (critically, the path distance is measured in terms of orders). Which means I would jump the way that gets me closest to your troop (meeting the requirement that you maximize movement towards the target until in base to base) and then, presumably fall.
     
  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    haha poor Mahtamori.
     
  19. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    Vanderbane,

    From my perspective, I don’t think it is reasonable RAW to treat falling as part of a declared move.

    I think it’s fine if a jump, without a fall, would get your trooper there in a shorter distance/number of Orders, but involuntary movement really shouldn’t factor into an Impetuous calculation, in my opinion.

    That would not only make it far more challenging to calculate Impetuous movement, but it would also lead to instances in which an Impetuous trooper would be forced to jump to its death off a roof rather than take the stairs.
     
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  20. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    @MindwormGames

    I disagree on two points.

    First, you never know the exact distance during declaration. So in my example, using the above images, it appears likely that I can jump the wall and get there faster. If when the move actually happens, there is a fall, so be it. same as when you declare any other move, if you underestimate the distance, you get as far as you get.

    Second, the fall to death thing is handled one of two ways (not sure which but fine with either). If a fall would likely be lethal, then the movement distance on that path is infinite, because your trooper never arrives. Alternatively, this is when you as a player get to decide to decline/cancel your impetuous move. Seems like the same as when you would move into LoF of a TR bot, but we don't complain that wouldn't happen because it would be suicide.
     
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