This came up this weekend at an event. I've abstracted the scenario below slightly for ease of reading. There are several questions. The circumstance is thus: there is a Daturazi in a high location. He is 1" from the front edge of a rooftop. There are ladders down the building 6" behind him. There is an enemy at the base of the building in front of the Daturazi, and an enemy at the base of the building down the ladders behind the Daturazi. Question 1: which enemy is closest? The Daturazi can reach the enemy in front of him in a single order by jumping and accepting falling damage to land in base contact with the enemy. He can reach the enemy behind him only by spending several orders declaring normal movements. (For this scenario we determine that the model in front is closest even though the path there was potentially lethal.) Question 2: we determine that the enemy in front of the Daturazi is closest. I now declare his impetuous order. How much discretion do I have as to what skills are declared? As noted, the closest path to the enemy is to jump and accept lethal falling damage. For obvious reasons I don't want to make this move. Must I declare jump, or can I declare some other combination of skills? (On the day, and mostly by the graciousness of my opponent, we determined that since 'jump or climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route', I could declare move to reach the edge of the building such that climb could be used in subsequent orders, on the grounds that both jump and climb would shorten the route in this case. Had I already been in contact with the vertical surface, I could also have elected to use climb rather than jump, again because both skills would have sufficed to shorten the route, even though jump would have shortened it more. Is this interpretation reasonable, or should I have been required to cancel my impetuous order or else jump?)
the only time they are forced to jump is if they are in B2B with the edge of the building, at all other times they must declare the legal "Move" required by Imp orders and move up to the edge, at which point they cannot declare jump as it is a full order skill. With this in mind, most of the time Imp troops will run to the ladder and attempt to run down it. Its something of a known issue in the game however that the jump rules cause more flaws than thye really fix, not just here but in their ability to be exploited to deal damage to models that you are otherwise unable to hurt, (Such as friendly troops or possessed TAGs ect) Personally I would rather the jump rules written such that they were more like cautious move in that if you did not have sufficient move to land safely after declaration the order becomes idle instead. But thats not what we have
@daboarder Spoiler wasnt there a thread in the old forums with people arguing for about 6-7 pages that a unit that can declare jump and fall off the edge should do it instead of declaring move and idle? Like if it has move 4-4 and is 3 inches away from the edge, it should not move&idle but long skill jump. I’m not taking any sides here, just pointing out the counter argument. :edit: I just read your post again. My post is redundant.
the final conclusion was the opposite I believe. As far as I am aware even IJW eventually agreed that if you can move the first shot skill you are fine
In that case do we determine closest model (i.e. fewest orders to reach) counting orders according to that assumed sequence of declarations? For example, "to approach by jumping it will take one order to move to the edge, one to jump, and then another to move to melee; to approach by backtracking to the ladder it will take one to move toward and down the ladder, and one to finish climbing and reach melee."
Most of the time, if you're within about 3" of a building roof edge, isn't it fastest just to jump where you're at and fall down? They really need to fix the whole impetuous and jumping issue. Climbing, I'm find with, since it's not damaging, but this is kinda crazy.
Impetuous how it is implemented bothers me. It's a steep discount to be a very negative trait. But people are always so determined to eek out every advantage that it's rarely actually much if a disadvantage. Really you should have to jump, and you should not put impetuous troops on rooftops. But yes it seems there is enough wiggle room in the wording to "interpret" that you you may move first. As to your second question, no you cannot choose to climb if the distance is larger than your move. Eg. A 5" building that would require 2 climb moves, means jumping is the shortest way down.
How do you square that with "Jump or Climb must be used if it would shorten the route"? If you're within 3" of the edge of the roof of a 4" tall building, declaring Jump would save you an order, so it seems that you are forced to jump.
Jumping will always, period, require as many or fewer orders to get to the enemy than climbing (and usually only as many when the enemy is at the base of the wall). This is because you can jump your full move distance horizontally and then fall vertically. So I'm not actually sure how many circumstances there would ever even be a climb move if you adhere to the most homicidal reading of the impetuous rules. Regardless, happy with the IJW ruling referenced by daboarder.
Because the rule is, A trooper using an Impetuous Order can move a distance shorter than the maximum only if he reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement or forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fury Then in the example we have. Impetuous Order: Direction of Movement The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route. The way these two actually work together is that the impetuous troop is allowed to declare move with its first short skill and stop. The only time the second clause kicks in is when the Jump or Climb skills are an option during the declaration of the first short skill. As such what happens is that if an impetuous troop is back from the edge you are allowed to declare move, and stop short as per the dot point in the rules, at which point jump is no longer a valid declaration as it is a long skill. However if they are at the edge of the ledge then Jump is a valid declaration that must be made and you may not declare the move. @inane.imp can go into more of the detail as hes the one that will remember where the reference is
But from impetuous says you must use jump if it would shorten your route, so 3" from the edge or btb shouldn't matter. Rule reads: "The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route." (Emphasis is theirs)
What Daboarder is referring to is bending the rules. None of the rules force you to declare Move, but there is a loophole that allows you to pick Move instead of Jump or Climb. So, if the Daturazi really wants to Engage the one below, it can declare Jump. It's legal in the same way a tax carousel allows a sufficiently large company to avoid taxes.
Sorry but forcing units to junp to suicide is more of an unsportsmanlike interpretation to me to be perfectly honest. Not the least because if thats your interpretation they have to jump directly out meaning any warband on any terrain higher than its sillie is liable to kill itself. Like i said initially the jump rules are borked
I rationalize it as they are referencing two seperate scenarios. The first is refering to a situation where you are 2 inches away from a 3 inch wall. The hypotenuse is not short enough to jump over. This gives the model acceptance to walk to the wall and end there, even though the model only walked 2 inches. They have come to a location " forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving" The second is referencing tall building and can jump down, they must. I argue that if you are 2 inches away from the edge, you must jump. Another example of the first rule would be if they are 5 inches from the edge of a tall building and declare move - move (second move being a chive instead of requirement). First 4 towards edge, second move MUST move 4 inches towards the target but cannot. He cannot declare jump as his previous point was 5 inches away. So he is allowed to not move his full 4 as the edge is the closest he could ever get this order. (Note, the impetuous model didnt have to declare good second move, but elected to in this example)
Its unsportsman like if it's a gotcha and they didn't know, it's not a problem if they knew and choose that regardless. Making sure you and your opponent are on the same page is more important.
I'm not talking about sportsmanship. If you ask me what I'd like, then I'd say that if possible the jump must be angled so that the trooper does not take fall damage, if possible. I think the most important thing is to construct the rule such that the player has no agency over the impetuous movement including not being able to box it in. That should include certain circumstances where the trooper would end up being suicidal.
