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Impetues order and smoke

Discussion in 'Rules' started by eciu, Dec 19, 2018.

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  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So we know that Smoke special ammo nullyfies "attack" label (you can smoke HVT and own guys).

    Yet there is a list of skills which can be used during impeteues phase:
    Legal combinations of Skills
    Airborne Deployment
    Move + Activate (Activate + Move)
    Move + Attack (Attack + Move)
    Move + Dodge (Dodge + Move)
    Move + Idle (Idle + Move)
    Move + Move
    Jump
    Climb

    And from special dodge rules we know that Special Dodge is not a Dodge skill:
    "Bear in mind that Special Dodge and the Dodge Skill are different things with different rules."

    Would it both imply that impetues units cannot throw smoke during impeteus phase ?
     
  2. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    They don't nullify attack labels, throwing a smoke grenade is a BS attack with a non-lethal weapon which happens to have some weird interaction with the face to face mechanic.
     
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  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    You're still declaring a BS Attack skill.
     
  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Here's what one of the FAQs on smoke says:

    Q: Can weapons with the Impact Template Trait and no value in the damage attribute be fired with allied troopes in their area of effect? For example, a Smoke Grenade, an Eclipse Grenade or a Nimbus Grenade.
    A: Yes.

    Notice where it isn't saying that it's "nullifying the Attack label".
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ginrei and eciu like this.
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I'd honestly say his wrong on that matter then. Quite simple.
    Unless there's some convoluted justification for it.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    There was a convoluted justification to it.

    IIRC it's based on this line:
    "Shooting or throwing Smoke Special Ammunition is a Special Dodge."

    Honestly I don't think it impacts this interaction.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's based on the smoke rules says "even though it's a Special dodge and not an attack" as per below copypasta

    ---

    Smoke and Speculative Fire

    Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack.
     
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  9. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    The part of the FAQ quoted by @solkan kinda solves the issue. But if you really want to be stricly RAW, i'd argue that smoke ammo not being an attack means you can't even throw smokes to begin with because throwing weapon require a BS attack to be used, not a special dodge. Or we can all agree this is bullsh*t and stop being silly.

    I wonder what would happend if one tried to have this kind of argument with a caledonian player. That would be fun.
     
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  10. JacobJ

    JacobJ Active Member

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    Aside from what the rules say and don't explicitly say, as has been stated and restated, doesn't it just feel right that a trooper is still able to take defensive measures despite being Stunned? Seems to me it's mainly an aggression-prohibiting state, and that Smoke Grenades should be as valid as Dodge.
     
  11. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I'd argue that throwing Smoke doesn't count as aggression, but then button-pushing does, for some reason. And, similarly, you can still shoot a MediKit, because it explicitly states that remote use is not an Attack. This game is weird.
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Cheers I forgot the specific reasoning.
     
  13. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    So blinded model cant throw grenade just like that, but he can attepmt to smoke dodge?
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. At -3.

    He also can't use Nimbus Grenades (they're still an attack).
     
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  15. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    Thats counterintuitive :D
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think there's room to argue that the skill declaration is still an attack, but that the effect does not count as an attack so that; tossing a smoke grenade can't be done while stunned, but on the other hand tossing a smoke grenade on a model with Sixth Sense does not grant that model the ability to turn around and shoot you.

    Short version:
    Using Smoke ammo is declaring an Attack that produces an effect that is not an attack.
     
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  17. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    So can i or can not use it while i Stunned? :I:
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When you are stunned you can't declare attacks. I'm saying that it's fully possible to argue that it's still declaring an attack to use smoke, without going against what IJW wrote in that quote.
     
  19. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    Hm, isnt it somehow like link team with smoke and bs weapons? For example myrmidons?
    3 linked models, model A i B in aro declares smoke, C declares shoot with for example spitfire.
    They all declare attack or only 1 declares attack and other two declare smoke dodge that is not attack? Or does smoking model declares attack, as throwing smoke that isnt an attack...? So is link broken...?

    There was FAQ about it I guess?
    It was solved and I believe it applies to this situation as well.
    I believe it was either all 3 models throws smoke for dodge or shoot.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Fireteam ARO mandates you to declare the same sequence of skills. When you use Smoke Special Ammo, you're declaring BS Attack with a weapon that has Smoke Special Ammo as its ammunition.

    Model A declares BS Attack using the weapon Spitfire using Normal Ammunition.
    Model B declares BS Attack using the weapon Light Grenade Launcher using Smoke Ammunition.
    Model C declares BS Attack using Boarding Shotgun using AP Ammunition.
    Model D declares they attempt to Dodge 2" backwards and around the corner.
    Model E had no ARO and declares nothing.
    -> Model D is in minority and gets kicked out of the Fireteam, all other models remain.