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If Jammers ignore Camouflage modifiers, why doesn't an attacker with Sixth Sense?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The FAQ entry gave the fact that Jammers don't require LoF as the justification for why it ignores things like Mimetism. Since, when attacked under certain circumstances, a trooper with Sixth Sense can attack "without LoF to the attacker," does the same logic apply? What about firing back through a zero-visibility zone?
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Does Sixth Sense ignore Mimitism, TO, ODD, Camo under any circumstances? No.
    Does help against Zero-V zones, as stated by the rules of Sixth Sense.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The Jammer FAQ indicates otherwise.


    More what I mean is that if you're shot through a Zero-V zone, since you can retaliate without needing LoF, do you ignore camouflage modifiers there too?
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    No. Has nothing to do with Sixth Sense.

    No. Same as above.

    I will extend an olive branch and concede that the justification for why jammers ignore camo skills and ODD are terrible but that’s a language issue at worst.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It does though, given the justification it gives. If they just said "Jammers ignore Camouflage modifiers" it wouldn't be confusing, but they put an explanation in there that brings the whole issue into question. The logic seems to be "if the attacker can't see his target, then being invisible doesn't help you." Ok, fine, so that means it would apply in these other situations as well, in which the attacker is stated by the rules as not needing LoF.
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Because the Jammer FAQ is for Jammers, and not for 6th sense.

    Yes, the rules aren't written perfectly, it annoys us all, thankyou for bringing it up again.
     
  7. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    The actual problem is that the "No LoF" label on the Jammer doesn't have any associated rules text. Please leave Sixth Sense out of this.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @colbrook the logic would apply to both. It doesn't say that only Jammers have this happen to them, because it's implying a causal relationship.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    You could equally say the logic is that if the FAQ applied to 6th sense they'd have said so in the FAQ.

    They didn't say so.

    So it doesn't apply.

    I know you like to treat the rules as a mental exercise and extrapolate or interpret ways in which to bend and break them, but sometimes a spade is a spade, and not an indication that instructions to only use spades in loose earth means all garden implements should be used in loose earth.
     
    #9 colbrook, Nov 8, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  10. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    For the record, this is the Jammer FAQ in question:

    Q: When performing an Attack with a Jammer, is the roll affected by the negative MOD of ODD or Camouflage, for example?
    A: No, in the case of an attack that does not require LoF, the negative MODs are not applied.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    If you would like my technical answer, here's the actual text of Sixth Sense (L2 in this case but the relevant wording is the same)

    Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user.

    It has two parts:
    1. It allows you to ARO without LoF
    2. It allows you to ignore your model's facing
    This is not the same as the Jammer; the Jammer can fire through terrain in a way that Sixth Sense does not allow you to. All the first part does is generate an ARO and allow you to declare a skill that would otherwise be illegal. The second part, which lifts the restriction on model facing, is the part that actually allows you to draw your pseudo-LoF and fire your weapon. As such, visibility modifiers not explicitly negated elsewhere in the Sixth Sense rules remain in effect.
     
    Leper, daboarder and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Because we know that Sixth Sense is written like Garbage and the LOF reference within its text is more with regards to facing that LOF.

    Move on
     
    inane.imp likes this.
  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    whats the point of these posts?
     
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  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    That’s one of the lesser mysteries of the universe.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    There's no reason to suspect that FAQ ruling's justification applies to only that rule. Otherwise we're in a weird place where we can't apply game information from one section of the rulebook to another.


    Technically the rules don't distinguish well between Total Cover and a lack of LoF; if, say, a trooper with Sixth Sense can't shoot through terrain even if it can shoot without needing LoF, a Jammer couldn't either. So the rules surrounding this, and LoF in general, are imprecise when you actually sit down and read them, to answer @MikeTheScrivener 's question. I know that the rules aren't well defined in this context, but some people apparently don't want them clarified. Separately to that, I think that Jammers are a bad game design element, but that's secondary to the issue.
     
  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener Kamau Amphibious Intervention Operative

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    You know the rules, I know the rules, we all know what they mean when they say "no lof" with the jammer. we all know what they mean when they say "no lof" with sixth sense.
    do you just want to interact with people via the internet? are you just trying to "totally own" CB and their rules? or is it something more underhanded like trying to find validation to ignore neg mods in your local games? whats your end game, are you just looking for a friend?
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's not that I disagree, it's just that your threads and constant nitpicking are tiresome.

    Like, we get it, you're sooo much smarter than CB when it comes to rules. Have a gold star
    41Vm+ZJkAzL._SX450_.jpg
     
    xammy, inane.imp, Erbent and 6 others like this.
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I legitimately didn't - and it's very confusing to new players.

    Legitimately, I don't want to be going into apologetics for CB when explaining the rules to new players. And I want the game/rules to be held to a higher standard.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's tiresome having to tell new players that they can't trust the rules in the book and they're contradictory. It's tiresome having FAQ rulings reversed because the people writing them can't be bothered to read the rules.
     
  20. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I have a couple of things to say here that might be of value to others. In short, that Corvus Belli have created a remarkable game that many of us here think is about the best tabletop game we could want, but have unfortunately not yet managed its rule set very well.

    Because we find it so good, we're also understandably more attached to it beyond simply playing it or painting the miniatures. We're also concerned with its general welfare, its market place success and we want it to manage the difficulties that spoil other tabletop games for us. In particular, we want Infinity to manage the clarity and accessibility of its own rules, and we're frustrated when it doesn't.

    And CB are a company with such a strong design ethic that, regarding its rules, its authors are themselves abundantly clear about how they're supposed to work and can quickly provide reasonable answers to unexpected or emergent situations when they occur.

    This is borne whenever HellLois, Palanka or other senior staff answer rules question, whilst their intentions remain pretty opaque to its players, causing ongoing concern and conflict in the community as evidenced by this thread, to name one example.

    The problem is that CB are a very small company whose tremendous conceit (meaning in this case that CB think everyone else knows and understands everything that they themselves know and understand) means they see no value in properly clarifying their rules to other people.

    Until CB understand their conceit and the problems it causes for us - their most enthusiastic players and advocates, and take an active interest in providing a solution, we'll not see an end to these unfortunate conflicts. People closer to the company are duly requested to bang that nice boardroom table in Cangas, and generally make a nuisance of themselves until the Directors get the message.
     
    #20 Wolf, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018