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How to Handle Reserves?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by quaade, May 5, 2021.

  1. quaade

    quaade Active Member
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    One thing that I've run into a lot is people playing as if Reserves are Private Information even though they are Public Information in the first place.

    What they most often support their argument with is:

    Orders of Troopers that have yet to be deployed on the table either as
    Models or Markers (for example, due to the Combat Jump Special Skill) do
    not contribute to their Order Pool. Undeployed Troopers’ Orders are Private
    Information, so their player can keep their Orders secret and out of sight of
    the opponent.

    Which in context refers to the Order Pool, which at the point of Deployment is just a concept as the Order Pool is only recalculated at the start of a player's round.

    Players recalculate Order Pools at the beginning of each of their Active Turns, during the Tactical Phase (further detailed in the Game Sequence section).

    This is the Private and Public Information from the Wiki
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Open_and_Private_Information

    It refers to "until they're revealed by game events." Deployment of a model is a pre-game event.

    This is how CGs are treated

    You must share Open Information about your Army List while you deploy your Models, Markers, and Tokens during the Deployment Phase, and also any time your opponent asks during the game.

    Although the content of a Marker is Private Information, which Combat Group they belong to is Open Information.

    If the Marker is a Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment, it belongs to the Combat Group of the Trooper that deployed it.


    The Deployment Phase is the entire Deployment instead of when you deploy your own models.

    There's nothing in the context of everything that says explicitly that Reserve Models are Private Information until deployed. This can be a translation issue, which has happened before, this is taken from the Spanish ITS document

    (Google Translate from Spanish as I've had this exact debate)
    The Courtesy List contains only Public Information and serves to show it to the adversary when he requests it but always after the end of the Deployment Phase.

    The last part is absent from the translated document.

    The only supporting evidence I can find is an anecdotal piece of evidence that some people saw it being done at the Interplanetario. Which is anecdotal and in no way applicable to N4 as supporting evidence as no N4 Interplanetario has been held yet due to Covid.

    This is something that really needs an official ruling from CB fast. Either they have to say it was intended to work as people say it does and correct the translation, or they have to say that people are unable to do that as at this point it's something that systemically perpetuates itself. It's unable to be solved by a calm and rational debate at this point. @HellLois we really need an official clarification on this.

    Ps. It also makes it easy to cheat as the player who goes second can have a "sideboard" and shaft in models as required as long as they cost around the same.

    And before anyone says that I have little faith in people there are two things to say. One, rules have to be permissive else we might as well just play Calvinball. Two. Good, bad, and faith are just biases. People are only people that can take actions that we put value on them.
     
    #1 quaade, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  2. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    There is too much text here that is all over the place. I cannot see an actual question. What are you asking?
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not completely sure either but I think he is arguing that RAW he believes that the model(s) you choose to hold in reserve to deploy last are public information in the sense that the other player could ask you what you are holding back.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    RAW the sentence can be read either way, because english is a funky language.

    The Courtesy List contains only Public Information and serves to show it to the adversary when he requests it but always after the end of the Deployment Phase.

    - - - - -


    1. You can either read as "when he requests it" but that the request can only be done after the end of the Deployment Phase. (Which is what I've seen 100% of my opponent do since I started playing the game.

    Or

    2. You can read it as "when he requests it" and also at the end of the Deployment Phase.

    I think the first reading makes a lot more sense, as the second part of the sentence is a precision. Otherwise with the second reading, the second part of the sentence is superfluous and useless.

    - - - - -

    This is a joke right?

    People have hidden models, AD troopers. Most of my courtesy lists only have a third of my total points. If people want to cheat, they'll be able to cheat.

    - - - - -

    I've literally never heard anyone claim that it was based on an anecdotal evidence from Interplanetario.

    You start a thread by telling people that they have only a single supporting evidence when you, in the same thread, link multiple evidence, lol...

    If your issue is that the wording could be clearer, that would make sense. But claiming that there is no piece of evidence when the sentence can very clearly be read in the way that seems to be the concensus is absurd.

    The fact that you even quoted a rule that says "Undeployed Troopers’ Orders are Private Information" is also a pretty damn good indicator of what the intent of the rule would be, in case you were still unsure about the reading of the rule.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Strictly speaking the game is written with Oxford commas and the lack of a comma in the sentence "when he requests it but always after the end of the Deployment Phase" means it all belongs together.
     
  7. quaade

    quaade Active Member
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    You would do well to look at the entire context instead of going by the fallacy of the appeal to the majority, especially when no one in the majority has looked critically at the source and only uses the English translation to make absolutely certain judgments.

    That's the English translation made by software. The original Spanish is

    La Lista de Cortesía contiene sólo Información Pública y sirve para mostrarla al adversario cuando éste así lo solicite pero siempre después de finalizar la Fase de Despliegue


    "Pero" is the "but" used. The issue is that "but" in Spanish has many contextual labels and means something else depending on what precise word is used. A machine translation is unable to read the context of the sentence it's translating it just translates the words. This is the reason if you set it to translate a non-standard sentence in a language that uses symbolic signs, such as Mandarin, you often get headache-inducing mess as the word prior has a different meaning based on the context of the words used.

    This is what "pero" means and how it's used

    CONJUNCTION
    1. (used to express a contrasting statement)
    a. pero
    I want to go, but it's really far.Quiero ir pero es muy lejos.

    And since it's an exception the passage means what it says, the opponent can ask for a list at any point in time and the opponent must give it unsolicited no later than after their deployment.
     
  8. quaade

    quaade Active Member
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    Yes, unless they're naturally Private Information, like Hidden Deployment or the content of a Marker, however, you have to state that you keep a Marker in Reserve if you do.
     
  9. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    The courtesy list is given after the deployment phase, so you dont have to say what is your reserve trooper. You can find It in the ITS 12 pag12.

    I am spanish and I assure the phrase means you give the courtesy list after deployment phase
     
  10. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 "It's a bug in the document"

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    "That's the English translation made by software."
    Just point of order, the English translation isn't made by software. It was made by a team of bilingual translators.
    This whole argument might be the most nit pickiest RAW argument i've seen on the forums...and that's saying a lot.
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    The rules require disclosure of Open Information at two points:
    (1) while you deploy your Models, Markers and Tokens during the Deployment Phase
    (2) any time your opponent asks during the game.

    Both points must have meaning and refer to different things.

    If all Open Information on the army list was subject to mandatory disclosure at all times, then (1) would be redundant. (2) would allow your opponent to ask for all your Open Information immediately - even during their initial deployment if they were deploying first. Also, you would have to reveal your camo troopers if they asked before you'd deployed those troopers, since the undeployed troopers would not yet be in a marker state (remember, deploying in marker state is optional).

    Since (1) must have a different meaning than (2), reading them together the only reasonable interpretation I can see is this:

    (1) As soon as you deploy a trooper, you must share all its Open Information.
    (2) Once the trooper's Open Information has become shareable per (1), your opponent can ask you to repeat it at any time during the game.
     
  12. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Man, you add so much irrelevant information in posts you make, run in such wide circles. Also if you just asked how does it work, instead of calling god's wrath upon the unbelievers and Hellllois to provide a ruling...

    Except you must choose a list you play before Initiative roll. After that you can shuffle sideboard models to your content, once you deploy and I see you deploy reserve troop that ain't in your courtesy list (and standard list after the game) I won and you're probably kicked out of the event.

    Also - There's no open information to share about a trooper that is not yet on the board. Just sayin...
     
  13. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Never been to any formal event myself, but in my meta, it has been like that for years:
    1. Deploy your models.
    2. Deploy your reserve (or declare that you do not deploy a reserve. We have a player or two who habitually don't use the Reserve rule).
    3. Once all deployment is done, hand over your Courtesy List.
    At any point, your opponent may point their finger at any of your models that are already on table, and ask what it is (including weapons, skills etc - all which would be normally Open Information), and you do answer that. Feeding false information in case of models hidden by a Holomask is a given. Since I like to use figure-like Camouflage Markers, pointing a finger at one of them brings exactly that answer: "it is a Camo Marker".

    Works like a charm.
     
  14. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Just a further point, as a Spanish native speaker, "pero siempre" means "but always". There is NO DOUBT in Spanish the sentence reads that you can request the Courtesy List AS LONG AS IT IS ALWAYS after the Deployment is done.

    Caps for emphasis.

    Everything else is trying to spun a different meaning out of it. If the argument is related to how to read the Spanish version of the rules (idk why, but whatever) that is the Spanish meaning. You cannot request a Courtesy List before Deployment is complete.
     
  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I literally used the source you quoted as a base for the arugment, and did not use the fallacy you mention.

    My reasoning is based off the part of the rule book you quoted, and not on what the majority thinks. It just turns out that the majority also thinks the same way.

    You started by saying that there is no piece of evidence your counter argument before the first reply even got put. If that isn't a fallacy of its own, I don't know what is.
     
    Cthulhu363 likes this.
  16. quaade

    quaade Active Member
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    I'll defer to your expertise on the full contest as I can only do Spanish via Google. I can request any and all public information prior to that though, which makes it a stupid "gotcha."

    This is what the English wiki says about Deployment

    The Deployment Phase is divided into the following steps:
    1. Player One Deployment: Following the order established in the Initiative Roll, as decided by the player who kept Deployment, the first player places all but one of his Troopers totally inside his Deployment Zone.
    2. Player Two Deployment: Once Player One is done, Player Two places all but one of her Troopers totally inside her Deployment Zone.
    3. Player One Last Trooper: Then, Player One places the Trooper he kept back during step one.
    4. Player Two Last Trooper: Finally, Player Two places the Trooper she kept back during step two.
    So, if I ask before about their CGs, how they're structured, which CG each Marker belongs to so that I can prepare my own Deployment I can surpass that.

    There's also no reference to anything specifically called Reserves anymore. The only reference I can find is under unit coherency and how you're disallowed for measuring ZoC from a Fireteam Leader if one model of the Fireteam is placed after the others.

    Strategos also never use the label of Reserves

    STRATEGOS L1 AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional
    Requirements

    • In order to benefit from this Level of Strategos, the user must be the army's Lieutenant.
    Effects

    During the Deployment Phase, you may set aside two Troopers to deploy after your opponent instead of the usual one.
    As far as I can see the specific label for Reserves is a leftover in the players' minds from N3 that has stuck around because there's something that looks like it. In N4 it's just "reserve."

    It's fairly simple. I've added quotes to support my arguments and there's nothing I can find either RAW or RAI that even hints at that undeployed model as being Private Information unless they already are in some capacity. If there's anything in the rules that says this I would like to see a quote that even indicates this. So far people have essentially just said, "trust me on this!" No one has ever supported their argument with a reference. I would be grateful if something I had missed despite going through Public and Private Information, Combat Groups, etc. Just so I know that "Surprise TAG" is something I can expect from everyone instead of just PanO and CA.


    @ijw can we please get some eyes on this.
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    This seems to be the core of your argument, so it might help if you rephrase it into a coherent sentence? I have no idea what you mean.

    I don't know what you think turns on whether a model held back is called a "reserve" or not.

    ...you might need to re-read the thread.
     
  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The sentence in spanish heavily supports the other side of the argument.

    The "Undeployed Troopers’ Orders are Private Information" bit from the sentence you posted heavily supports the other side of the argument.

    The fact that you keep calling it a "gotcha" and that you keep saying that there is no argument makes it seem like you're just arguing in bad faith at this point.

    - - - - -

    I'll concede that the language is ambiguous and can be read either way. But I think the other rules surrounding it and the spanish ruling makes the intention of the rule abundantly clear.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    "Reserves" is as far as I know an expression from Warhammer that was never a thing in Infinity, other than several community members calling it that. All they are are undeployed units.
     
  20. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think I’ve seen any evidence of good faith from the OP on the topic.

    And before mentioning things like the fact that the games been played for three previous editions, so there’s a solid agreement that undeployed troops aren’t open information.
     
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