Every time someone tries to make a power comparison with Aleph and listing strengths, I see complaints, that our advantages of v:nwi and dogged are negated by Shock being ever present. I however, do not share that experience. Sure there is Shock ammo around, just as there is a lot of other nasty ammunitions, but they do cost points, and so they’re relegated to a few pieces - and I do expect to face some models, that will prove a challenge and capable of killing my own, such is the nature of the game. Yet still, in most cases my models enjoy the comfort of v:nwi. How about you? Have the threat of shock threatened your playstyle?
I see it everywhere. It has a pretty important effect on Umbras. Submachine guns have it, and they are currently a darling of the design team. They're very undercosted for what they do, and so they put them on profiles they're trying to make powerhouses of their faction/sectorial (Ryuken-9 etc). And, of course, antipersonnel mines have it, which is another bother.
From tonight's club game: My Onyx force had two Rodoks and a Malignos with Mines. My opponent's Morats had Explode on the Gakis, some Shock CCWs and a Krakot with double SMGs. That was a bit under the average, but not massively. EDIT - plus a KHD on each side, so Trinity.
Whenever shock is brought up I think it's fairly important to remember Assisted Fire is a thing. I pretty much always see a drone and a hacker on a list, which means that anyone (barring maybe Ariadna, which already gets shock built in into their TR drones anyways) already has an easy and quick access to shock ammo even if their list doesn't have it on its own.
as a Haqq and Onyx player, i have at least 1 weapon with shock ammo (or a hacker to buff REMs). But i think that people may be overreacting about it, i don't lose my NWI/Dogged units for shock that much, and you must learn to deal with your weaknesses and strenghts as well, shock vs NWI/Dogged is a weakness, if you're afraid of it you can target units with shock first. I normally play against PanO/Ariadna/Tohaa/Nomads and ALEPH, even versus Ariadna Shock is not that plentiful.
NWI and Dogged have become pretty dang pervasive. To reiterate the points that have been made: -AP mines are the most pervasive, and they're everywhere. -Assisted Fire on REMs is the second most common. -SMGs and MULTI rifles/HMGs are fairly common now also, and dedicated Shock weaponry is on the rise. Specific knowledge of enemy threats is really important now, if you want to use NWI or Dogged effectively. They remain useful pseudo-second wounds, but now you have to plan how to get the most out of it by neutralizing or avoiding those Shock sources. NWI units avoiding Shock now requires the same deliberation as old Tohaa or Steel Phalanx avoiding Fire Ammunition.
VanAriadna can be pretty reliably counted on to bring a Spetsnaz HMG with Shock from MM2, in addition to mines and possibly the occasional Scout or Sniper. My PanO don't bring a great deal, most often Hospitaller Doctor and Croc Mines, but remotes are almost always present in my lists along with a hacker to buff them (I'm not counting Shock CCWs for what should be obvious reasons). All in all, maybe half my list at most with the potential of Shock. More likely a third or a quarter.
I never run a list without it. ALWAYS either a remote that can be assisted with hacking, or an SMG, or some kind of multi weapon rifle/hmg.
As most people have mentioned, REMs and Mines are the most frequently encountered offenders, along with SMGs and MULTI weapons being close seconds. But there's few other notables: Red Fury - darling new weapon, all the hard hitters are getting it now Sniper Rifles - staple of Haqq and Arianda, with Tohaa also joining in (and the occasional Bounty Hunter elsewhere) Crazy Koalas -.- yeah, available on only a few units, but Morans are a staple of Nomad lists and other ones get frequently included Viral weaponry - Haqq and Tohaa exclusive (well, ISS has some too), but if available to faction, it is frequently included Marksmanship Lvl1 - while Lvl2 is fairly rare, Lvl1 seems to be given out a bit more freely And finally, just Shock variants of weapons - Shock Marksman Rifle seems to be very popular recently. All this results in armies where plenty of units carry Shock weaponry, and will press forward with it. And I've had Asura put unconscious.
It doesn’t come as a surprise, that people are using Shock ammo. I do too. It’s nice and practical. However, I wouldn’t prioritize putting Shock into my lists. I don't think, I have had many games, where it had a big impact, other than perhaps saving an order in stopping a certain mini. Bar lucky crits, Infinity is mostly a game, where the active player has the odds on his side, so when you want something dead, it is bound to die. To me, the cover-denial of MML2 is the big kicker, Shock is not even a cherry on top, more like sprinkling. Take the case of a TR rem, which is a nasty piece of hardware, that is bound to cause some trouble – unless you happen to hit it with a -12 modifier and just blow it away. The only consideration I have is the odds in the FtF, as I do not plan to take any chances on wasting orders. The only point where I feel Shock has an effect, is when you're making that desperate final button push, send your specialist running across the table in order to secure an objective on the last orders, where you are too order starved to secure the advance.
Prevalence of shock ammo ? In my lists (mostly vanilla Aleph): always. I often have at least one SMG (the god of close range weapons, really), rem+assisted fire or mines. And even if i do not, i will have fire or DA/EXP - no matter if they have nwi or not, 2 wounds means dead. Against me ? I often face weapons able to deal multiple wounds in one order (HMG, DA snipers, missile launchers ...), multi hmg is a common sight, HFT and mines too. I know, i didn't talked only about shock ammo. But shock is not the only counter for nwi/dogged. nwi is good against standard troopers, it's really good on cheerleader hunters. But any opponent can bring things that will kill troops in one order, regardless of nwi.
Exactly, your troops are bound to take some bullets, and if opponents want a certain model dead, its gonna die, that's my point. Although, fairly wasted on hunting cheerleaders (why spend orders on doctoring unconscious order generators?) The thread is more a reaction, that I constantly see people 'whining', that V:NWI is no good (not worth the cost) any more, since Shock is all around.
I face Shock constantly. Especially against Ariadna. It's gotten to the point were my Ariadna opponents groans in irratation if they ever pull the Extremely Impetuous Classified. But then again, Shock is also a powerful rule so why wouldn't actively include a bunch of units with that rule in your lists? I laugh at units with the Molotok, as U think it's clearly an inferior weapon compared to the Red Fury and the Molotok always seems to cost 1,5 - 2 SWC. If I was given the choice of a Red Fury, Molotok or Spitfire, I'd choose the Red Fury all day, every day, every year!
That's the point. You don't need to prioritise Shock ammo because it is so widely available it's still going to be present in your lists in significant numbers. People don't put Assisted Fire on REMs to get Shock - they put it to ignore Cover and get Shock as a bonus. But they still get it. And NWI is overcosted significantly. It costs in the neighbourhood of 6-8 points (on 1W models, not Asura). It's close to cost for a full extra Wound, and it's hilarious compared to Symbiont Armour. NOTE: I've been corrected on costing, which seems to be around 4 points. It's still overcosted in my opinion, but not as much.
I find NWI useful, i use it mainly to press some situations knowing that even if i fail, i'll only take one wound. For example, when rushing to an objective with a standard troop in cover. But in most situations dogged would do the trick too. I like NWI on my myrm officers, and they are probably the one who use it the most - that's also because i tend to avoid getting them into too much danger. I like dogged on nagas, and they often do the job well. But i find NWI to be overcosted on dasyu for example. 35 pts or more for some standard CH:TO is a starting to be a bit too expensive for what they do.
In case you wonder I rarely was hit hard by shock ammo when playing SP. Template weapons of all kind (especially fire) was much more effective against me. When playing: SP - just loaded with shock Vanilla Ariadna - just loaded with shock Qapu Khalki - just loaded with shock Little Red Riding Hood with her Big Bad Wolf & Co. - pretty low on shock but a truckload of viral (Loup Garous), fire & mines Caledonia - depends on the amount of Highlander Caterans I field, but decent Shock is prevalent and annoying but it's fire templates that hit SP (and Aleph) really hard.
Last time I checked (usually comparing the Dasyu and Spektr), NWI is around 2-3pt, possibly 4pt. There's no way it costs 8pt on any 1W unit.
And it's probably that we see the cost of the whole unit compared to other armies, including NWI, nanopulser, high vol ... all theses things together add to the cost.
Never seen anyone, who seriously attempts to break down the point costs of the trooper profile, ever do that. They usually take very comparable units and attempt to calculate the differences, just to give an example.
