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How exactly is Climb supposed to work?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Teslarod, May 2, 2018.

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  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    After using a lot of C+ troops in the recent path I got around to reevaluate the general Climb Skill for tactical application.
    Upon revision of the Climb rules it turns out I am not entirely certain how they're supposed to work in general.

    here is what the Wiki has on it:

    CLIMB ENTIRE ORDER
    Movement, No LoF, No Roll.
    REQUIREMENTS
    • The user's base must be in contact with a vertical surface.
    • While Climbing the user's base must be fully in contact with the surface over which he is moving.
    • Troopers cannot Move through spaces narrower than their base.
    EFFECTS
    • The user may climb vertically up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches.
    • Climbing does not require a Roll.
    • As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb.
    • Troopers who are Climbing or holding on to a vertical surface cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs.
    • Troops can never be in the Prone state while they Climb or hold on to a vertical surface.
    • For visualization purposes, troopers using the Climb Skill move with the underside of their bases in contact with the vertical surface.
    • Climb allows only movement up or down vertical surfaces; this means troopers cannot use their excess Climbing movement to keep moving on a horizontal surface once they are done climbing. Once the trooper reaches a level surface, his movement ends for that Order (see diagram).
    • Climbing movement must follow the General Movement rules as well as the Moving and measuring sidebar, both of which are explained in the Move Common Skill rules.

    However the part marked in blue, seems to disagree with the specific example it is refering to in the first place.
    While the part marked in green on it's own would allow for further vertical Movement in case the trooper's base is toucing both the ascending and descending side of the structure shown in the diagram.
    [​IMG]
    According to this diagram it takes only one Order to climb on top, stand on the vertical surface and climb down the other side. RAW this should require two Orders to do.

    Unless the obstacle in this picture is supposed to be too small to stand on. Thus intends to show how to climb over a wall not wide enough to allow a miniature to stand on top of it.

    However crossing a wall completely in one Order depends on what exactly a level surface is.
    If the top of a wall is too small to place a base on, but still counts as a level surface, it still would be possible to vault over it according to the General Movement Rules.
    Nontheless if it is considered a level surface Movement ends when entering contact with it and the diagram shown above would be incorrect.

    This can also interpreted as a space exactly wide enough to fit the miniature's base while in contact with both walls. While that is fairly uncommon to achieve with walls, roof corners easily allow to replicate this situation.

    [​IMG]
    The second diagram in the Climb rules fits the rule text. 3 Orders for Climb, Move+2nd Short Skill and another Climb.

    Does anyone have any specific ideas what I am missing and how to deal with this properly?
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Here's the last time it was discusssed, but not actually resolved (@ijw didn't actually answer the question).

    The only way both diagrams are correct (in terms of the order cost) is if you get 'free' horizontal movement when you translate from vertical back to the horizontal.

    As per:
    "Once the trooper reaches a level surface, his movement ends for that Order (see diagram)."

    Ie I read 'his movement ends' as 'he is placed on the horizontal in B2B (or as near to it as possible) with the edge'.

    Basically: the arrow on the top of the second diagram should be measured from the leading edge of the base, everything else is correct.
     
  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Oh my, thanks I forgot to ask about the free basewidth of movement once you reach a flat surface again.

    Vaulting while climbing over railings on a wall is another issue I am uncertain about....is the "flip over" to the other side free movement?
    How exactly is the "flip" at the top of a fence/wall/railing happening?

    I'm afraid you gave me more questions to ask. Even with the free movement the trooper in diagram one reaches a level surface on top and should require 2 Orders (if the surface is enough for him to stand on).
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Remember that you can go up AND down. This is the meaning of the figure.
    If your base DO fit the surface on top, you get this:
    [​IMG]

    If your base DO NOT fit the surface on top, you get this:
    [​IMG]
    This is a SINGLE ORDER worth climbing. 2" up + 2" down. Your model CANNOT claim to be standing on the top because he would violate the General Movement Rules (base fully supported).

    Note that in this case your model can't do anything on the top. On the other hand, in the case above (where you have to spend 3 orders) you can act normally while on top.
     
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  5. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Yeah, this part of the rules is poorly written for sure, I have plenty of sympathy of anyone being puzzled by it, and I'm a bit curious about the language used. The rule makes sense in its way, no doubt; and it IS quite hard to describe it eloquently but to me, the requirement for the base to say flat on the wall doesn't seem relevant to the movement itself because the information doesn't help explain what's happening. (In fact, it's contrary to normal front-of-base to front-of-base measurement.) I presume it's the Line of Fire requirement (like the similar qualification for Vaulting) that's been written into the movement mechanism. Maybe it reads better in Spanish. Dunno.

    Anyhow, there's no debate about what's happening in the simplest situations and @inane.imp described it pretty well there. Basically, the unit may travel up to its full first MOV value vertically, plus the diameter of its base horizontally, and only so as to fully reach level ground.

    As to the issue with parapets, there are only really a couple of ways of managing it properly. The first is with to have already house-ruled it, and the second is to always have the foresight to check through the scenery before the game begins and agree what you're doing with it...

    For the rest of us, a nice solution for narrow parapets is to measure the height of the wall from the ground to roof, ignore the extra parapet height, and move the unit onto the roof as it usually would without the parapet being there - politely ignoring the extra horizontal movement...

    Note that this doesn't work so nicely if the parapets are thicker, and it doesn't work at all well if the Climbing unit has a large base, heavy armour, multiple wounds, and when it it advances halfway across the roof it can see your troops ... just saying. :frown:

    I don't think there's a ruling for that situation, and so whilst I'm sure most people are happy with the former solution for narrow parapets, I'm interested to know how people house-rule it for scenery with thicker parapets; does anyone has a satisfactory ruling?
     
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The fun part is that if you have Climbing Plus, you can act while on top. That's nothing special though, same principle as a regular vault over a low obstacle. You'll simply be unable to end the Order at this point.


    Here an example of my own - how do you guys play this?
    [​IMG]
    Trooper 1 starts at the red position and declares a Climb up to position blue. The distance is just shy of 4 inches.

    Option 1: he gets to vault on the other side, where he touches a level surface and ends the Order in position purple.
    Option 2: he has to spend another Order to climb down the other side and then ends his second Order in position purple.
     
  7. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I usually play that as needing a second order, but honestly this feels like something that could use a clarification in either direction and be totally reasonable.
     
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  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I usually play Option 1 for simplicity's sake, especially if the lip sticking out is something like a railing and not a wall. Climbing is order intensive enough.
     
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  9. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I would play it as general movement allows you to vault through that terrain piece and so you end as purple.
     
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  10. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    Definately option one. Rarely comes up tho.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It has been a while, but I think it is supposed to represent an obstacle that cannot fit the base, don't quote me on this one I will see if I can find notes.

    On the second question, if I recall correctly, if the model cannot reach the flat surface with its MOV it remains hanging on the wall.

    This does mean a model with MOV 4" can climb up 3" and down 4"
     
  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    He vaults.
    Its the general movement rules
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    This is the mechanically cleanest way to deal with the rules and just allows smoith play in most circumstances
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Those diagrams are not to scale at all and can't be correct. IJW has confirmed that there is no way the rules allow you to gain horizontal movement for free.
     
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Those diagrams are pretty clearly the rules. Complete with the measurement at the end not including the base width
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So what you're saying is, very literally, that if you vault over something the horizontal distance you vault is free.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, he’s saying that you measure the vertical and then place the trooper on the level surface you climbed to. And that you vault parapets because otherwise you can’t ever practically climb anything and it plausibly complies with the general movement rules.

    But IJW clearly says that’s not how it works, so *shrug*
     
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  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Not me, but the General Movement Rules and the Distances and Measurements sections.

    'When moving troopers around the battlefield, players must measure the complete route (including, for example, any detour to avoid obstacles) and must always use the same part of the base for their measurements.

    [​IMG]
    And from the first clause of the General Movement Rules:
    'MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move, but there is no minimum'

    The Climb rules don't say anything about overriding those general rules - rather the reverse, as Climb specifically says that it follows the General Movement Rules.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. But what does that mean in the context of the diagrams.

    I'd argue that in the diagram the vertical measurement is from bottom of the base to bottom of the base and complies with the rule you cite; and you get the horizontal movements for free as a consequence of the "level surface" clause.

    The second diagrams horizontal movement on top of the terrain is clearly wrong, so we can dismiss it.

    Basically: I have a troop (4-4 Move) in base to base with a 3.5" building without a parapet. Can I climb to the "level surface" on top of the building in a single 4" climb?
     
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