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How does SWF work?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by D_acolyte, Nov 10, 2021.

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  1. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I recently won first place in a local tournament with NCA, causing trauma along the way, and got my hands on an ITS Jotum. Now I feel like I need to make an SWF force to go with it. When I looked through them I could not help thinking "hmmm they need a board with lots of different heights". What do people think of the SWF or how they play?
    The Karhu seems fun.
    The Vargar seem situational.
    Nokken seem similar to the Locust and I have been using them some in NCA mostly as tool box models.
     
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  2. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    My experience with SWF was primarily in N3 for the TTS tourney, but the only major update has been the Karhu.

    My view is that its a points heavy faction that really forces certain aspects with heavy handed internal competition. Karhu are a mandatory take, theyre too good to leave out of the list. Even solo the FB profile is solid and as part of a link it just evaporates models. Nisse are in a bit of a pinch because their link options are pretty poor and the Karhu go where they want and accomplish much of the same goals potentially better. Hospitaliers are another part that feels the squeeze as they compete with orcs and KoJ who can mix with other options. Infirmers are very expensive for a shooty doctor thats not bringing anything beyond raw stats to the table and paramedics are usually as good an option. Nokken clash heavily with locusts for role, and I find usually I pop them in as mine layers to give me some defense and to control the midfield and ignore locusts. Boyg compete with KoJ but lack the ability to reliably hold a position, speed, hacking durability or flexibility. Gunnar and Uma are expensive characters in an already expensive faction and they largely fill roles covered by regular units that cost less. Jotum is a solid piece and gives you an anchor to fight around with your other gunfighters but as with many tags, links and mods will slow him down. Don't anticipate him to blow holes through your opponent's lines every game, he is a support piece. Fusiliers and orcs are solid as always. A few climbing orc options are neat to clear out rooftops. Vargar are cool, but albedo is not a good selling point. Probably best as a solo piece, with the FO hrl being a standout. Good allocation of rems.

    So, key units are: fusiliers, orcs, karhu, nokken and KoJ. Key support, rems, jotum, doc/engy or karhu. Special call out to Angnes for being the universal 15 point link filler and lee sin for being a warband. Everything else, is trying to compete with this, for attention. The main strategy is to hammer your opponent every order, both yours and theirs. And if you can't take the hit, make it take as long as possible for them to deliver that punch with mines or armor. You lack any real subtly as you have effectively 0 hidden info. You have to keep this in mind when designing your list and deploying as theres no recovery back door.
     
  3. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I was one of those who dislike a lot Winterforce when at first come, but I didn't give up and I was capable of do something I like with winterforce, back in N3 and now in N4. The "frozen" sectorial of Pano is too different to the others, this is a good thing, but some of the biggest differences "are seeing as disadvantages".

    The things I belive a player needs to keep in mind when playing Winterforce are:

    -You will need playing with fireteams the entire match. You will need to move them over the table. And you will have to do a lot of use of that thing called "command tokens" to remake a fireteam. It could be a "core", a "haris" or even a "duo", but you will be using fireteams whole game. Probably the true force of Winter resides in how flexible is when build fireteams. And of course the Jotum.

    -Winter has a few really good profiles which do really well in close combat: Liankai, Shona... even Gunnar. To me Winter is the most suitable sectorial for the CC Panoceania has.

    -Half table is something hard for Winter. In my experience one Locust or two, always the submachine+wilparrot profile are the choice... except if I go for a list "full of half table", with full ava of Nokkens + Locust. In tournament I usually bring this kind of list as my second choice in case I face some faction with low access to visor and the scenery on the table allow to hide the troups. But is a bet all or nothing to me.


    Keeping this in mind is time to "do some lists"... I allways try to think in fireteams and replacement. I did a lot of use of core+haris+duo where at least one of the pieces in the "haris or duo" can be attached to the core. This is a kind of game the "a full five member fireteam the whole time".

    Fusiliers are the base of "the core". Orc hmg + Karhu FB are the choosen ones to be part of that fireteam mostly. Sometimes a KoJ spitfire instead the ORC.

    Shona goes usually to the haris, a hmg nisse one plus machinist. This haris works really well. If you want to be prepare to fight against visors the Vargar Marksmanrifle K1(minelayer) is great too, in this case instead machinist you can do use of Agnes.

    Liankai is a "lone wolf".

    I put always full ava of fugazzi in the second group plus "duo of bulleteer spitfire + gunnar". Thanks to the tactical awareness of Gunnar you will have six orders for that duo. A lot to do some harm, go half table and even push some button. If we do an extensive comparaison between profiles Gunnar is terrible expensive, but still that "extra order" become gold and made him something close to playable.

    If I don't play the "duo" the KoJ spitfire come into the list. The second group becomes more "only ARO", but I have stronger pieces in my fireteams.

    If you want to play a more clasical approach for the core: fusiliers FFM + ML as strong ARO, you will run out of SWC really quickly, in this case don't forget to take a look over the "mk12 boyg". Yes, is a plain HI without any "special habilities", but as a "damage sponge" could do some work. It can do "duo" with shona or gunnar, for example. It has too Terrain (total), in some ITS13 missions it could be really interesting.

    They are a lot of interesting duos, for example Gunnar+Boyg or KoJ spitifire with Hospitaller Doctor. You have a lot of options and this is what is cool of Winter.

    Nokken are too expensive and fragile to play only one or two, any enemy skirmisher or warband can easily kill them, even if this mean a trade. This is why I don't like to play a few and I usually go for the "full nokken approach" if I do. Locust, the wildparrot profile at least, is somethng else. Thanks to the dangerous E/M+DCharges+CC20 it could be really dangerous for heavy targets as TAGs or HI. Even if the enemy launch a cheap troup against the locust with PH 12 still has a good chance to avoid templates...

    They are a lot of people who claim that "winter don't have surprises", but how you configure yours fireteam is the "surprise".

    The big problem of Winter to do fireteams core with nisses is the SWC 1 cost for the Lt option or the non SWC cost wildcard "Uma", a profile so expensive that becomes almost "unplayable".

    A lot of profiles become usefull directely dependand of how many points you are going to play. It is not the same 200, 300 or 400.
     
  4. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    A unique inclusion to SWF that's not otherwise present in PanO are Chaksa Longarms. I heard them spoken of rather disparagingly in a Spiral Corps thread though. I've never played with them and have no opinion of them, but I'm looking to pick up more pieces for SWF while I wait impatiently for CB to finally make some Karhu models.
    Since someone clearly went out of their way to include Chaksa in Sval, do they offer anything there?
     
  5. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    Theyre the cheapest bass model for a haris to build a fireteam.
     
  6. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this could be "the reason", and maybe in games to 200 they have a spot... but they are many other options a little expensive but far better... I really don't see the point to include any of this guys in my lists. Maybe because I'm right now too happy with the list I already play, but I recognize in some cases one of this guys (mk12) or the one with "E/M granades" could be a good addition to the list.
     
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  7. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I believe that there are some design issues with Spiral Core. Mostly that they took one of the most variable fireteam composed forces as a baseline with the Tohaa and then stripped out a lot of that to include standard fireteams and some special fireteam. This leads to some ractions on the players part which makes them disgruntle with model that are not triad. As an example Spiral the cheapest you can get a double autocannon haris is 82, 8 points more then what SWF can do because Agnes can be slotted in making it 74 points. This compared to the absolute troll link of 3 Taagma presenting as longarms or anything else with 1 tri core and 2 viral snipers at 68 point. Also you can change some things out or put the Taagma into other links depending on comp and missions. I can see why Spiral players are not a fan, what was sold as a new way to play Tohaa lacks well being Tohaa in several ways.

    Yes I recommended the triple Taagma link to someone it was apparently hilarious in a game vs a veteran player because they assumed it was a Taagma and Auxilliar link with a tricore.

    Though I have not used them in SWF I have used portable autocannons some in Ariadna. If you have not then the best thing I can compare it to is a Burst mode Feuerbach with a some more kick. Feuerbach in burst is burst 2, damage 14 ap+da, where the portable auto cannon is burst 2, damage 15 (16 on a long arms) ap+exp. I tend to like the feuerbach has a better range band of 0 beyond 32 inches and I have used that to some great degree effectively "sniping" HMGs but otherwise the portable autocannon is an improvement of the feuerbach. Alternatively if you are just looking for an ARO model you could go with the Missile which on a Longarm is damage 15. I feel like if you take them you want to give them 2 guns.
     
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  8. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    That reminds me some of NCA where I see the Swiss as the Hexa big brother, the Aquila as the Black Friar big brother and the Bolt as the Fusilier big brother. Yes one is better then the other but is it worth the point or the build comes up a lot.

    Also I tend to run a good number of attack pieces because I like maintaining pressure and aggression.


    This reminds me of Steel Phalanx.
     
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  9. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    This could be a good comparaison, but Winter shoots (in general) way better than Phalanx. In some way winter could be the hardest shooter pano can deploy, with too many mimetism or tools to put down visors. But all spins around the karhus. It is so easy to have one "fireteam of any" with only a piece of any ;)
     
  10. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    SWF's key trait compared to the other sectorials is its Link versatility - There's no guarantee for your opponent to predict which models are gonna be in what link. Compared to our other sectorials.

    You can dissolve a ORC from that Fusilier core to form a Haris with some Varg or a Karhu etc. You can pretty much plug and play many of the unit options with every other unit option in some fashion as the mission requires it. The Karhu can wrangle those directionless special character wildcards into a haris around himself and get them back to work.
     
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  11. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    I would like to echo what others are saying here. SWF does one thing, but it does it well.
    The link versatility is amazing. It is pretty rediculess how essential a single model is in this sectorial (the Karhu).

    But the ability to have all three link formations i a single list with ease is amazing. I especially like my KoJ(hacker), ORC (tinbot) and a Karhu (paramedic) or Varger (K1) is nice. Also a bulleteer plus Karhu engineer duo is wild.

    And the ability to switch links and fill out links as they take damage is really good.

    Sadly SWF also have quite a few lackluster units competing with much better units.
    Boyg is Chief among these.
     
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  12. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy to read that majority of us are seeing the same about Winterforce :) "Fireteams"!!! I hope this will something we don't loose next summer, when the new fireteams rules arrives.

    About the Boyg, sadly isn't the profile you "put in every list you made", but I found it extremely usefull (mk12) in 200 or 400 points matches, or whiel playing the Limited Insertion ITS extra. Not all is bad about this guy, but probably it shoult cost fewer points.
     
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  13. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    Not to derail the thread to be about the Boyg, but most of the time, even at lower points, a KoJ does the same just better.
    He would need somthing to diferentiate him more to be viable imo. The whole point og the faction is linkteams so it is crazy not to build into that. He would need a gun much better than a mk12 or some special ammo or additional rules to make up for it.

    The kinda sad thing about SWF is that it only does one thing well, and had no other tricks. It would have been nice to have a AD guy inthe mix or a Camo guy. Anything to mix IT Up a bit. Because the only way to play SWF is to double down hard om the links.
     
    #13 Jotunn, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
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  14. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    I was just thinking of having a post about the Boyg potentially being in the realm of a Guard unit similar to that of the Aquila, Guarda and Swiss. Up his BS to 15, give him a weapon that is a bit more spicy to justify being taken over a linkable KoJ.
     
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  15. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    That is propably what they should have done with him instead of the mess he is now. Breaker ammo for his MK12 would do alot for him imo, and BS 15 would really set him appart from the other options in SWF, and justify the background og being a super advanced experimetal suit using voodoo tech
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Give him a sepsitor.
     
  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Boyg? Hidden Deployment and Surprise Shot (-3). It would also fit nicely with its namesake's lore.

    Locusts could get the same treatment, to differentiate them from Nokken more.
     
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  18. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the issue to me is that its skills don't synergize well with one another. +1B is nice but it basically just turns the Mk.12 into a no-SWC Spitfire... so you're not really feeling that burst bonus. Maybe the missile launcher with +1B is nice to have specifically for TAG hunting(?)
    They're not as fast as most other HI. I can't imagine wanting a Duo of Boygs. And the Dodge bonus feels wasted on a unit that has enough armor and wounds to take risks shooting with rather than dodging in ARO. It's a super cool model that I rarely feel like including except for a laugh.
     
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  19. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I feel the same. If we look at the Koths we can see a really well designed super heavy infantry unit. For only 10 points more it gets better movement, holoprojector, nco,great CC and a AP hmg. the difference is astounding. The Boyg feels especially lackluster compared. And it is a real shame, since the model is amazing.
     
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  20. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    I can see the merit of giving Shona a Mk12 Boyg to escort her across the board. Allowing them to both dodge at fairly capable skill if the Boyg isn't in a gunfight in which is beneficial for him. However this is a limited use.
     
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