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How do the Targetless Deployables work with Increased Burst/Coordinated Orders?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by NorthernNomad, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    The FAQ states that when using multiple tragetless "attacks" in the same order, that you have to target the same point with all of them.

    Q: How does the Targetless trait interact with Coordinated Orders or with increased Burst in reaction, for example when throwing Smoke Grenades is it necessary to target the same point?
    A: Yes, in both cases.

    This ruling still leaves some questions unanswered when it comes to using a target-less weapon such as a Drop-Bear or a Pitcher which places equipment?

    I few questions I had on the topic:
    1. If you were to fire 2 pitcher at the same time and succeed multiple rolls what happens? One deployable repeater would obviously be placed at the targeted point on the board, but where do the 2nd+ repeater(s) go?
    2. Another similar question, say you are coordinating an order and have some troopers firing regular weapons at an enemy model, and 1 unit firing a pitcher. I'm pretty sure the FAQ rules that the Pitcher would have to have to target the same enemy model as the rest of the shots. Is this correct?
    3. If 2 is true, if you were to succeed the roll with the pitcher where would the repeater be placed? I would assume it would be Adjacent to the enemy model. However, the deployment rules state that things cannot be deployed in base to base contact with enemy troops?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Note that that FAQ only addresses Coordinated Orders and AROs.

    So in the Active you can place two deployables in two different locations.

    In ARO you have to place them in the same location, meaning you get two rolls but only one will go down as there wouldn't be room to place the second.

    In a Coordinated Order firing a pitcher at a trooper would have no effect as there's no room to place the pitcher.
     
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  3. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    Ah so it does, I was assuming they were talking about how to handle increased burst in general, but now I see they are just restating the inability to split burst when performing an ARO or Coordinated Order.

    Both these answers make perfect sense, still would be nice to have official clarification though.

    Assuming this ruling is correct there is an interesting opportunity to cancel an opponents deployable placement. You could move into the space where you opponent tries to place a deployable to cancel them if you are close enough. Either by Dodging into them on the reactive turn, or performing a move-move on the active turn.
     
  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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  5. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Oh, good one! I didn't know this interaction. ty!
    It seems that it also loses one charge
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...ovement-declarations.25662/page-3#post-174335
     
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  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    And what if the enemy trooper is killed by the other shots ? Both placing the repeater and removing the dead trooper happen in step 8 "effect" so you should be able to place your repeater
     
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  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Good one. If we follow the rule of thumb of infinity that "all happens at the same time" then the placement is illegal.
    Not 100% sure about this one tho. Other games have things like "the active player decide the order in case of 2 effects trigger at the same time" but I haven't found anything like that for infinity.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That’s not entirely correct:

    1. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.
    The Repeater is getting placed at the same time as you make the ARM Roll, not at the same time as the results of that ARM Roll.
     
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  10. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    But... "A Deployable weapon or Equipment is not considered deployed until the Conclusion of the Order."

    Which should mean if the troop had failed its ARM rolls and died the space would be free for the deployable to be placed
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    How could you deploy the pitcher on the ground when you targeted a trooper?
     
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    By the way, the same reasoning could apply to the previously solved situation (moving on the sport where the mine is supposed to be layed) :

    Brave krakot declare move
    ARO : sin eater declare BS attack on the Krakot, zero declare laying a mine
    Brave Krakot declare move, reach base to base with the zero on the spot the mine was supposed to land (which, per solved thread should prevent the mine from being layed)
    Resolution : krakot is killed by the sin eater, do we put the mine on the table ?

    I imagine I can target the bottom part of his silhouette (by shooting from the bottom of my own silhouette), resulting in the "point of impact" being in contact with the ground
     
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  13. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    But troopers block LoF, so you'd be deploying the pitcher somewhere you didn't have LoF to when the Skill was declared (the ground under the trooper's feet).
     
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  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Front and bottom of the silhouette. The "impact" will be on the front of the base. I have LoF here and it's in contact with the ground. I won't see the whole repeater but I will see it's center (which is enough for a targetless weapon)
     
  15. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    Great Question! As I said above I think the mine would be placed because equipment isn't deployed till step 9, where damage (and death) occurs in step 8.

    If this is the case though it brings up a further question of how do deployables interact with guts movement which also occurs in step 9.
    1. Are Deployables placed on the board before guts movement? Or could the guts movement cancel their placement?
    2. Say you have a Co-ordinated order with pitchers and other guns fire at an enemy trooper, the enemy passes his ARM but fails Guts and falls back 2". Would the pitcher be able to be placed in the now vacant area?
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the phrase 'at the conclusion of the order' doesn't always mean 'during Step 9, Conclusion' it usually mean ' at some point during steps 7-9'.

    The mine ending up on the table *should* happen during Effects because you are applying "effects of successful Orders or AROs".

    It's an example of where CB often uses loose language rather than explicitly referencing the timing system they built.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And so a FAQ/update for those items should really reference which step of the OES they use.
     
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    It would be great if some extra details about these timings would be elaborated. Now resolving these kind of interactions is not easy to do convincently, specially if "at the conclusion of the order" means "somewhere around step 7 and 9"
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is a small but potentially important difference here, and that is that "deployed" and "placed" are two different things. It could be that what they mean with "deployed" is actually "when the deployable equipment starts working for the purposes of triggering mines or projecting Hacking Zones"

    As such, even if the Repeater is deployed through ARO and placed during Effects, the Hacking Area will not be taken into account for Guts Rolls made by the active trooper because the Repeater isn't considered to be deployed and active yet if the active trooper survived a Hacking Attack ARO.

    I'm just speculating, but this is the best I can come up with that doesn't invalidate how effects are handled throughout the rest of the game
     
  20. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    I didn't add the link to the "order expenditure sequence" on the word Conclusion in the text about deployable equipment, it was already there. It would be absolutely ridiculous if the word "conclusion" which is literally linking to a page where conclusion is the name of the 9th step, didn't refer to said 9th step.
     
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