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How are models with 4-4 mov supposed to jump this high?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Dec 28, 2021.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    As per this diagram from the wiki:
    [​IMG]

    It depicts a parabolic path moving over a 1.75" barrier. A 4" jump can't get you over that barrier. How are we supposed to play Jump?
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    The wall height is abstracted on the example, undefined height. It's confusing that it's shown to be taller than the S2 silhouette, but that's it. As long as the 4" arc can take you over to the other side, touching the ground (can't fall in N4), you're good.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah the text literally calls it out as 1.75"
     
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  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    If you're basically moving the base (Silhouette height is irrelevant, base needs to clear the wall), why is the wall too tall if there's 0.25" of clearance? Aside from the fact that the width of the wall seems to be unknown? Same for the base to wall distance, also unknown. Assuming it *almost* doesn't touch, the 25mm base is slightly less than 1", so half of the base + the minimal distance seem to clear the wall, if the "wall" is a "thin fence".

    If it has any appreciable width, or the base is not at the almost-minimum possible distance from the "fence", then probably you can't jump over a 1.75" wall like that.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Simple answer is; don't use it, in practice it is useless as we can just vault over anything that can be jumped over or on top of. Keep in mind that the path has to be parabolic to get over or on top of things, so the situation is actually much worse than you probably first thought.

    Suggestion in italic:
    • Allows the user to move horizontally (to clear a gap), vertically (to reach a higher or lower surface), diagonally or tracing a parabola, up to his first MOV Attribute value in inches.
    • Jump is a Common Skill that does not require a Roll.
    • When Jumping, measure the distance between the starting location and the landing spot, measuring from the base’s outer edge and underside and ignoring scenery.
    • A traced parabola must no longer than the first MOV Attribute or as short as scenery items permits.
    • Troopers cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs during an Order in which they declared Jump.
    • Jumping movement must follow the General Movement Rules as well as the Moving and Measuring rules.
    Yes, this is my favourite rule to talk about, I know. This is a fresh suggestion that I've not seen before I think and it offers the least interruption and drastically reduces complexity. Might need to remove MOV+MOV distance fore Super-Jump. Or not. Is a Guijia jumping over an objective room ridiculous or awesome?
     
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  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    If the wall was snaller than silhouette, you could vault for free.

    if the wall was taller than silouhette, you can't jump it.

    :upside_down_face:

    Jump is a terrible skill, only ever used it to go from a roof to another, and even then you need to make sure every enemy pieces are accounted for or you'll just die to a hidden deployed trooper.
     
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  7. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Its useful going from 1 rooftop to another or going to roof to ground floor when the building is 3" or less in height.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Have you done the math on that?
    I think it might work for S2 with 6 initial movement if you're starting the jump 0,5 to 0,7 inches away from the wall. Pretty sure the base is too thicc on Tariq and the likes while the parabola becomes way too stretched if you're closer to the wall (assuming the next floor doesn't have a fence or anything because then the flat trajectory makes the jump way too far for even an Entire Order skill and most buildings are too small for it anyway).
     
  9. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Can we just assume Super Jump is a bloat skill they use to increase points of some units? Just like N3 Automedkit on 10PH guys xD
     
  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    When you remember Super Jump being a cool feature of higly mobile werewolf models :(
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Super-jump was probably a bit too good compared to climbing plus previously, but in its current state it's just a bit disappointing. It feels a lot like someone trying to slightly reign in some abuses, but failing to do the math on things.

    Specifically - I think the change to jumping to not allow you to fall is fairly reasonable, overall, as falling was used in a lot of unintended ways. But removing the safe falling distance, along with other changes to super-jump, has left the skill feeling very limited.
     
  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Haven't mathed it out, but for tables i have played on it seems that if you are on the edge, that most buildings can jump down a floor and gain a tiny bit of distance horizontally from the wall. Coupled with being useful in link teams as some can be moved purely horizontally.
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    RAW, the parabola has to go up high enough that you clear the edge of the roof on the way down. So for example, an S2 standing at the edge of a 3" high building has to jump high enough that it moves a full 25mm forward by the time it descends back to the level it started at, and do so with less than 1" of movement so that it still has 3" to descend to ground level.

    I don't think anyone is playing it that way, and the math would be all but impossible to do at the table. But I suspect if we did calculate it, we'd find it's impossible in most circumstances. We're only jumping down from roofs because we're allowing clipping through the roof, which RAW isn't allowed.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm way too tired to re-learn summing derivations that I've not had practice in in over 15 years, but just plotting a few parabolas I'll note that whatever proximity to the wall you gain is immediately lost by the extra height above necessary to clear the obstacle.
    While you can probably optimise the height a bit by not having a perpendicular line of symmetry, I'll note that a 3" wall is close to the max a 6-2 unit like Nourkias can jump up on (or down from) when executing a short skill Jump. For a unit like Ye Mao, it is much closer to 2.2". The killer is, however, the distance you need to start from the wall. The Ye Mao need to be about 1.1" away from the wall in order to be able to jump up to the higher section.
    The second killer is that the of the wall isn't the height of the plane you want to land on but the height of the wall and railing. So if the wall is 2" with a 1" railing, that's like jumping up a 3" wall and falling a futher approximately 1.2", which seems (again without actually doing the math because my brain can't relearn that skill at the moment) to make such a jump out of reach of the likes of Nourkias, forcing a Entire Order skill.

    Now most pre-made structures are just slightly taller than an S7 TAG per floor and that is juuust outside the reach of the likes of a Ye Mao and quite clearly outside the reach of a Guijia or Tarik (due to the wider base) and any additional obstacles like a railing will likely make it inaccessible to e.g. Nourkias.
    Now, if the floor height is tall enough for a Sphinx to see over it, Ye Mao and Tarik can jump up on it by standing a smidge over their own base away from the wall, as long as the edge has no additional obstacles.

    Again, you may want to be proactive and house-rule this skill. If you want it to be good at moving upwards you need to be creative, if you want it to be good at just getting down from things and getting surprising shots then you can look at N3 version.
    While Super-Jump was better than Climb+ in previous edition, that was only because no one actually read the rules properly on how jumping actually works and just assumed really sharp turns. I think Super-Jump and Climb+ were in fact very similar in potency with one being better at getting up on stuff and the other better at getting down and about equally good at getting unexpected angles at the price of not having any cover.
     
  15. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I am hoping with the Living Rulebook change they allow super-jumping units to fall up to their movement for free. It would make Super-Jump useful again and easier to actually use.
     
  16. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Why not just make it so that super jump models can vault a height equal to the value of their first move(instead of silhouette height)?

    That eliminates any fussing with parabolas, makes it easy to jump fences and leap onto buildings, all without bringing back the infinite falling problem.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because vaulting is just straight up free movement and just straight up significantly better than climb+ - and in this case also a bunch of pretty much free partial cover. The game table stops being about being slowed down and forced to tactical movement.

    Only way I can see you getting Jump and Super-Jump to become functional skills using vaulting mechanism and not massively skew the game to trivialise movement obstacles is to nerf vaulting to a much more realistic half silhouette size (this is roughly being able to do an Olympic hurdles course in full combat gear without slowing down)
    At the moment a trooper in full combat gear can skip over a city SUV without slowing. Same goes for a city SUV. Let's just say congestion isn't a thing in Infinity, you just vault over crossing traffic.

    Anyway. It's basically about what you want scenery to be. Is it meant to slow troopers down or is it just there to break LOF but not movement.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Super Jump was cool when it ignored fall damage at a certain distance.
     
  19. Sirk

    Sirk Well-Known Member

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    I agree on the most shared comment: Jump is just a useless skill, pretend it doesn't exist.
    OR, if you are up for home rules, come up with a fix that your group can agree upon and go for that.
    Of course, if you are going to play with different groups or at tournaments, the second option is not viable.

    The idea of having it interact with the vaulting mechanic is, actually, quite a good one, as the latter is simple, straightforward and scalable.

    My opinion is: it's just a shame a game that is (also) all about cinamatic combat has two skills (jump and climb) which are so poorly effective in practice that they end up never entering play.
     
  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    If we're proposing solutions, just get rid of the Jump skill entirely. It's currently unusable and the game isn't the worse for it. A guy wearing armor, a backpack, and multiple weapons shouldn't be able to jump any meaningful distance. For that matter, even an unemcumbered person can't jump far enough for it to matter at Infinity scale - certainly not up onto a building taller than he is! Vaulting is more than adequate to cover a person's limited ability to hop short distances.

    Climb is good the way it is - allows units to get up or down from buildings, but at a meaningful order cost and vulnerability.

    Super-jump needs fixing, of course. Particularly since it defines so many units' supposedly superhuman abilities, but doesn't do anything.
     
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