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Hot Take: Objective rolls in ITS should auto-succeed on an Entire Order

Discussion in 'ITS' started by locksmith, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    I think I'm not alone in the feeling that too many ITS games get determined by one player or another having a streak of bad dice luck on an objective.

    Proposal: Replace all 'Short Skill' Objective rolls with 'Short Skill or Entire Order'
    • If you choose the Short Skill, you make the WIP roll just like the current version, with +3 to the roll for specific types of specialist unchanged.
    • If you choose the Entire Order, you make no roll and the skill automatically succeeds.
    Issues:
    • Diminishes the impact of having the 'right specialist' since the +3 bonus has no effect on the Entire Order version.
    • Reduces the dramatic effect and positive feedback of a successful roll along with the frustration of streaks of bad luck. It's my opinion that it's worth it, but some will disagree for sure.
    • Complicates the decision tree with a new choice.
    • Diminishes distance between outcomes for factions at either end of the average WIP scale.
    Benefits:
    • Move+Short Skill Objective Roll is still a valid option because of its efficiency.
    • Reduces the 'blind' effect that single die rolls have on the value of player decision. IE, when you are heading towards a single-die roll, you are 'blind' to the outcome, making player decisions less impactful.
    • Reduces the value of very high-order lists.
    • Diminishes distance between outcomes for factions at either end of the average WIP scale. ;)
     
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Interesting enough, in ITS X they changed the standard bonus from a flat +3 to a +3 in addition to making two WIP rolls per short skill. Realistically if you use the correct specialist to hit the button your chances of failing are near 10%. I'm pretty sure this is different from other seasons, but have never really seen anyone mention this or talk about it.

    I'm not opposed to the mission incentivizing your list building into bringing the right specialist, it adds an interesting dichotomy and a layer of asymmetrical gameplay that I enjoy. I disagree with your sentiment that if a long skill that auto-passed were to be introduced it would "Complicate the decision tree". You would always test your luck running into it on the first order and if it failed you would opt for the long skill every time. I also disagree that it reduces the value of high-order lists, if anything it increases their effectiveness.

    No one likes failing a wip roll 3 or 4 times in a row, but that's part of the game. It nicely simulates trying to scramble and activate a console or antenna in a high-stress environment while possibly getting shot at.
     
  3. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    Making the bonus specialists better helps with the blinding effect, but it takes us another step away from 'it's not your list it's you' and I'm old school. I like in game decisions to be more important than how you built your list.

    I'm mostly thinking of xenotech, which is for some missions still a god-awful single die roll against an 11.
     
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  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    To be fair – the game needs to strike a nice balance between list tailoring and actually playing the game. Both are and should be important to how games are won. Push it too far in one direction and you get 40k, the other direction and you get chess.

    I agree with you that the Xenotech isn't a great mechanic. It's too taxing and usually swings games in a ~2 point difference every time, though this isn't a fault of the objective scoring system but rather the mechanic of the xenotech itself. Often times I'll write a nice, well rounded list for game night only to find out that my single combat group list of a core, a Harris, and a duo is now essentially hamstrung because my opponent wants to play a round of Acquisition. "It's not your list, it's you" well, in those cases it's the mission.... or maybe its my list... or maybe it's me because I wrote the list?

    I don't know....
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Agree on the mission beforehand, then select the list you want to play.

    Our local community has a weekly infinity night. The mission played each week is selected and announced on the facebook group for it so everyone rocks up ready to play the same thing. If people want to play a different mission they discuss it with their opponent first.
     
  6. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    Fundamentally, yes, kicked around an entire order skill gains a re-roll as an alternative to auto succeed.

    Even those 2 Wips at +3 fail every once and a while too.
     
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  7. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    say No to wip 11 objective roll, say Yes to objective auto success! Not every army for example has chain of command to have +3 to wip. I had once a game, where my kurgat couldn't click antenna with WIP 13 ... Infinity has enough of random stuff.
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I just don't know why we have to go from one end of the spectrum to the other. I agree wip 11 rolls are dumb, but auto succeed is also dumb.
     
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  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    It may be dumb, but it's order expensive. And orders are the most limited resource of the game.

    I like it more than the bonus, double roll or reroll.
     
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  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I really like the double roll +3 with the mission favored specialist bonus. Rewarding doing the right job with the right tools feels really good. It should still have a small element of risk I think, it is a dice game after all and a second order occasionally makes you still have to play to contingencies and isn't too onerous.

    I wouldnt be averse to double roll on a long skill (but no+3) for a non favoured mission specialist. It would further lessen the need for high order counts without negating having a bonus for the right guy, and comes with some risk (ie taking a TO ARO to the face).

    Mostly I'd just like to thank @HellLois for adding this wonderful double roll mechanic. If we have anything like Xenotech in future it would be good to have a similar thing where some meaningful player choice can make the roll more reliable.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I think being able to spend a long skill to ignore the WIP stat and autopass would probably have large ramifications on game balance as a whole. I dont really like the idea of divorcing objective completion from the WIP stat
     
  12. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    It's fairly common to set boundaries by looking first at the extreme opposite of the current system and then work backwards to happ(ier) medium. Progress is iterative; just because I'm proposing a radical change doesn't mean that the only options are to accept it without modification or to drop the subject entirely.

    For example, as an alternative to simple autosuccess on an entire order, what if it was

    Short skill: roll as ITS X
    Entire Order + Command Token: Autosucceed.

    or

    Short skill: roll as ITS X
    Entire Order + Lieutenant Order: Autosucceed.

    There are lots of ways to make an objective challenging to complete other than die rolls, is the main point. All I'm hoping for is some constructive discussion of what that might look like.

    @daboarder
    Your preference and concerns are noted... I did note the exact same thing in my initial post about shortening the distance between outcomes for factions at either end of the scale of average WIP. I don't think the practical impact would be measurable though. After all, Pano has plenty of WIP 13 specialists, even though it's the WIP 12 ones that get all the attention.
     
    #12 locksmith, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  13. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    I think when discussing the variability of WIP rolls we should be talking about the Xenotech and "Normal" objective securing as fairly separate entities.

    I don't care for the Xenotech at all. It really just serves as an order tax in every mission it's in and it can be a little frustrating that no matter how you construct your list, you can't mitigate or improve that WIP 11 roll and are just stuck flipping coins. With regards to the Xenotech specifically I might actually back the option to auto pass with an entire order or at least get some kind of bonus for it.

    That being said I agree with others that extending that to other objectives is probably a step too far. It kind of takes away part of what's interesting about list construction and seems a little unfair to the factions that pay for a higher WIP stat.

    As a side note I think it's interesting that people get really disgruntled over flubbing objective rolls they were 90% to get when stuff like getting your 40+ point HI crit in your active turn is dismissed as "bad luck, sh*t happens".
     
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  14. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    I’d like the idea of a long skill being able to complete an objective, but only if the specialist survives the order.

    I feel this would help stop the bonkers last turn “button rushers,” that trade out cheap specialists for the win when going second.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I think this will devalue the WIP stat somewhat, which I don’t like because I like unis who pay to be good at performing specialist tasks. IMO the double rol, 3+ is the best solution so far because it rewards list building.

    With that being said, I honestly want the Xenotech to be a one time deal and just disappear in the next seasons as I think the xenotech has had a net-negative contribution to the overall game.
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I feel like Xenotech would be an OK addition to a small minority of missions maybe 2-3 total but with some extra ability to make meaningful choices that improve your odds.

    Following the double roll+3 idea. Maybe +3 for having the correct specialist on the board (Hacker / Engineeer / Doc - depending on the mission) and a double WIP roll to place the scanner if the Xenotech is synched to a specialist of that type.

    That would allow a bit of strategy and counter play (do Sync it with my squishy specialist for the bonus or something tough or something disposable? Do I try to assasinate the opponents syncd trooper if I go first? Etc).
     
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  17. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

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    As a Haqqislam player I would not feel bad about WIP being less important for mission success, if it meant I didn't win or lose matches because I or my opponent had to spend 5 orders on a WIP 11 roll, and the other only had to spend one.

    I like the idea that each failed roll grants +3 to the next (maybe only for that turn and/or that specialist). That way high WIP is still important, but it limits WIP tries to max 4 assuming the lowest WIP is 11.
     
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  18. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    I think automatic success on an entire order isnt the best way to go, but allowing to roll two dice instead would be an interesting choice. The Wip stat is still important, but the probability that you fail multiple times is much lower for everyone.

    In addition to that the suggested Entire Order+CT I would also appreciate. Give you another use for a CT and an option to be really sure.

    On top of that, I would like to see a -3 mod to flip objectives from them to yours, because in missions where you should have activated something at the end of the round/game, this wouldnt make going second so much favourable.
     
  19. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

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    I dislike the idea of auto-success on long skill, as it encourages people to do the following:

    Ignore all other specialists for mission objectives, and just use forward observers, as they are the cheapest and most widely available specialist (barring 'specialist operative' profiles, which are usually on more expensive profiles anyway).

    This way, the player can use the saved points on adding cheap regular orders to ensure up to three objectives per game (one extra order = 3 orders over the game = three entire order skills = three auto-successes).

    I dislike this intensely as it'll homogenize ITS missions by making it less necessary to bring different types of specialist.
     
  20. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I'm thinking the following could be really good and simple.

    Short skill

    - unfavoured spec = normal wip
    - favoured spec = +3 Wip

    Long skill
    - unfavoured spec = 2×roll normal Wip
    - favour spec = 2xroll +3 wil

    Side note, I'd like button pushing to become a face to face, kind of like dodge if opposed with bullets.