My brother had a tourney the 10th December and used for the first time Patrocle. During the game, his opponent said him that only the real Patrocle could benefit from the ODD and not the echoes. So, Dicover and Shoot are only modified by the range and cover unless it is Patrocle. And the problem is there is nothing explicitly said that the echoes have the ODD MOD and that what was used by his opponent to don't apply it. It is only said that the ODD isn't shut down. So, guys, could you help us about it?
Holoechos have no negative MOD to shoot/discover. They also don't have an ODD so don't benefit from it's effects. Patroclus himself has ODD so you are at -6 to shoot or discover him (I originally thought you you can discover without penalty though as ODD does not affect discover rolls, but sage IJW pointed out discover its affected by anything that affects BS) .
Holoprojector and ODD both have the negative feedback trait, so wouldn't there be NO MOD due to ODD if holoprojector is running?
Discover is done without mods - ODD doesnt give a penalty to discover mods. Shooting only has a penalty if it is Patroclus, as his clones do not have ODD.
Does someone want to tell me why Discover isn't affected by ODD? This WIP Roll is modified by the same MODs that affect BS Attacks (Cover, Range, Camouflage, TO Camouflage, ODD, Impersonation...).
Yep, and with Pat having Holo3, his holoechoes have ODD. Otherwise, my first order I put one shot on each echo, and then for the rest of my orders I shoot the crap out of whichever echo has ODD because that's the real Pat.
No, his Holoechos don't have ODD, and yes that a perfectly valid option. But if Patroclus is in a position where you can see all three Holoechos in your active turn then he's already messed up really badly...
A lot of stuff is in the air regarding Holoechoes... most of them comes from Patroclus, some are common (like, are you obligued to deploy all three holoechoes, or can you deploy only 2?), but it never ends. RAW nothing says one way or the other, however only the real Patroclus carries an ODD, so it stands to reason that the Holoechoes won't benefit from that. Of course, that means that once you know the modifiers to the Discover roll, you don't need to suceed, since you already know if it is or not an echo... however, to declare Discover as ARO is suicide (you wouldn't roll against Pat's fire), and it won't do you any good on active turn, unless you "discover" against an echo and fails the BS shoot AND Patroclus was not doing a single thing (move+move comes to mind). Frankly, I can't think of a single situation in which this is actually a real, meaningfull disadvantage, frankly.
If you shot Patroclus three Echoes and the Zhanying flunked their rolls, 17, 18 and 16 - would your opponent be forced to reveal which of these rolls failed by 5 or more and which ones failed by 3 or less?
you need to give the values per roll, so it's easy to count the modifiers. And Patroclus must have forfeited his ARO for this situation to arise.
Where do the rules even infer that you're allowed to deploy only two Holoechos? The only thing still in the air that I'm aware of is how Holo1 and Hackable interact. As per usual, MODs are worked out in the Resolution step, so you'll already know what modified BS the Zhanying is rolling against for each target.
While I agree that in the english version of the rule there is no doubt you are forced (which I think goes against the mind games spirit of the holoecho, btw), again in spanish the wording is... less definitive. Which is one of the reasons I only use Bashi Bazouks nowadays, and place 3 holoechoes of whatever (usually a random profile of the bashi bazouk, less usually the one with E/M ammo, and once as a merc as three Achilles to troll a little... and it didn't work even for a heartbeat). Now that I think about it, I have four TAG models and none are manned, too (Marut, Xeodrones, Sphinx).
Yes, in the second bullet point (there is little reason to complain about getting those 2 holoechoes for free). The first point, however, only points to place the three holoecho markers in coherency, not to place three holoecho markers in coherency the way they do in english. To be truthfull, part of my gripe with Holon2 and n3 is how it gives less mindgaming options than Holon1, because first you had to identify all echoes as markers (thus making patroclus useless as Achilles' bodyguard), then they changed that to only needing to identify one (and in your active turn, so if you go second you can leave some echoes to make your enemy nervous), and now with the having to place 3 echoes they mess up great oportunities. I mean, I go and play Limited Insertion, place 2 full Enomotarchos links on the table, and Patroclus disguised as Achilles V2... If I can place 2 markers (platroclus and 1 echo) then I'm covering the absence of my Ekdromos or (if playing with Mercs) a TO (Saito) on the table. But if I am forced to deploy the 2 echoes and the original, my enemy sees 11 miniatures and knows there are 9 troops on the table and 2 markers. It is even more "damaging" in Generic: disguising Patroclus as two Multi-toting Asuras covers both a spot in the line and the points that spot needs. I suppose I'm suffering more because of the lost opportunities than anything, but oh well -.-U
For it to be 100% "right" it should remove the "los", thus ending as "situando tres holoecos", or "placing three holoechoes" in english. The way it is written, in english can be translated as "placing the three holoechoes", which is less, I don't know, strong? definitive? It refers to a group of holoechos, instead of three individual holoechoes, so to speak. Anyaway, as a I said before, I think I'm letting my frustration with the limitations to colour my perception here.
