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Holding to Ladders and Shooting

Discussion in 'Rules' started by n21lv, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    If you can climb ladders without declaring Climb or Jump, is it possible to hold to a ladder and declare any other skill? BS Attack, for example? I understand that there are many metas where ladders are treated as granting Climbing Plus while moving along the ladder, but I'd like to see a more or less official answer. The example in the General Movement Rules shows gun fire in the diagram, but otherwise there is no mention that it is possible.
     
  2. Nitroflaherty

    Nitroflaherty Member

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    Ladder let you move vertically with out having to declare climb/jump so it's just a normal move short skill , you can do whatever you want with 2nd part as far as I know
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This. The example just makes this clear.

    Note that you still can't get cover on ladders, because the climb rules make it clear you never get cover when "hanging onto a vertical surface".
     
  4. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Sure, but then Move allows vaulting over obstacles and also lets you Super-Jump from the wall
    All I want is a simple confirmation like "yes, that's intentional". Assuming that old forums will be decommissioned quite soon, and the only answer to this question being there, I think we should have at least an informal answer on this forum until someone adds it to the FAQ.
     
  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Next you'll want a standardized answer for doors. :scream:
     
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  6. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Wrong. Next I'll want an MTG Comprehensive Rules type ruleset where every game term is referenced unambiguously, and all rule overrides are properly described. But I guess it's as possible as to find a company that claims to be ITIL-compliant where people actually know what ITIL is and really use it.
     
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  7. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what ITIL-compliant is, but Warmachine comes pretty close to a comprehensive ruleset with game terms used unambigiously and overrides properly described. CB took a massive step forward with N3, and I really feel like some errata, maybe a N3.5, and an official rules judge(s) on the forums they could be at that place, if it was a priority for them.

    OTOH, when you start dealing with things like ladders and other bits of terrain you're just never going to get to a completely defined system. MtG has the luxury of being able to work in a completely defined space. For CB (or any other minis company) to get to that point, they need to remove the variability of people's terrain, or reduce it's impact to the point that it's largely irrelevant.
     
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  8. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    Terrain in Infinity is incredibly simple and straightforward, especially for a wargame.

    It doesn’t do anything unless you’re touching it. If you’re touching it, it’s doing something to you. If it’s not Horizontal, it’s Vertical.

    That’s Infinity’s terrain rules in a nutshell.

    The OP’s question is an example of expecting the rules to be more complicated than they are.

    To be fair, the way the Infinity rules are written engenders this expectation.

    For example, a model on a vertical surface, for any reason, can’t benefit from a partial cover MOD. That’s essentially the ‘if you’re touching it’ Vertical surface rule, but you have to extrapolate that effect from a network of skill descriptions.

    The N3 rules could seriously use a good sifting to separate the massive amounts of chaff.
     
    #8 MindwormGames, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  9. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Good summary here. Indeed, the rules are often written in a way a layman would try to describe some complex system, often using confusing vocabulary and forgetting that what may seem like common sense to them may not be that common to the person not familiar with inner design of the system.

    A good example of this is how Holoprojector L2 rules regarding equipment and markers are written. Stuff like Symbiomates is both Deployable Equipment and Game State Marker. The rules state that Holoprojector L2 cannot replicate the Deployable Equipment the imitated model has, which in case of good ol' mates would be the Kaeltar. But rules also state that Holoprojector L2 replicates all Game State Markers the skill bearer has. Assigned mate is a Game State Marker, so it is quite logical to think that, assuming the aforementioned limitations specified in the rules, a model with Holoprojector L2 cannot replicate the mates of Kaeltar (since they are Deployable Equipment the Kaeltar itself has), but can replicate them when they are assigned and used as a Game State Marker. However, @ijw confronts that opinion, but other than him trying to clarify CB's intentions, there's no official clarification or FAQ on that.

    By simply defining an extra label for Equipment like Symbiomates and adding extra line into Holoprojector L2 rules that states any Game State Markers representing Deployable Equipment with that label cannot be replicated by the Holoprojector L2 state, the issue described above would've been easily averted. As stating that Ladders temporarily grant the user Climbing+ skill when user is in base contact with one.
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    But HP rules specifically call out symbiomates as not being copied...?

    "A trooper in Holoecho state cannot replicate those Deployable weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by a Marker or model (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed by the Minelayer Special Skill...) the imitated model or himself could have.

    However, the Holoecho state replicates all the game state Markers (Prone, Unloaded...) the Holoprojector L2 bearer has."
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I spent a considerable amount of time being stumped on that passage and came to the conclusion that what it says is actually "No, you may not put down a 'minelayer mine' near your Hafza and no, you may not stick an additional fake Sniffer next to your Kanren Minelayer". It's the markers and figures that would be a result of the masquerade that you can't replicate.

    So, a SymbioMate would be replicated if it was put there on the Kotail by a Kaeltar, but the Kotail would not be able to replicate (as in place) a fake SymbioMate on a Kosuil.

    At least, that's the only sense I could make of it.

    P.s. I checked the Spanish rules and they are slightly clearer due to not having a confusing piece of extra words:

    A trooper in Holoecho state cannot replicate those Deployable weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by a Marker or model (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed by the Minelayer Special Skill...) the imitated model or himself could have.

    Una tropa en estado Holoproyector N1 no podrá replicar aquellas armas o piezas de Equipo Posicionables que se manifiesten como Marcador o figura anexa (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, CrazyKoalas, Minas desplegadas por un Minador...) de las que dispusiera la figura imitada.​
     
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  12. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    That's exactly how I would read it.

    Anyway, the ladders question seem to have been anwered and is only thing missing is @HellLois 's blessing :D
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  13. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I'm jumpin' in:

    is this sentence from climbing:
    • For visualization purposes, troopers using the Climb Skill move with the underside of their bases in contact with the vertical surface.
    true for ladders ?
    because if this is true it is nearly impossible to fire from the ladder to guys on the top of the building, that's very counterintuitive but the picture is very confusing:
    [​IMG]
    also with the famous "vault over" rule can I move up half the ladder (2xS2 in hight) then vault over to the top for less movement ? RAW it look like yes but it is ridiculous ><


    Another question when I'm at it: can I be prone on a ladder ? Nothing is saying no ... but the climbing rule say nope
     
    #13 Sangarn, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  14. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    You might not be able to shoot a prone guy on top of there, but if you're at the top of the ladder it's pretty simple to draw LoF to a model standing on the top.
     
  15. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    well if the Silhouette cylinder is at horizontal you cant really draw Lof like on the picture
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Quoted for Truth!
     
  17. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    Why not?

    upload_2019-6-6_17-24-23.png
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    for real is that really how it work ? ><
     
  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    cylinder side on?

    Yes
     
  20. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    omfg
    it's written no were ! this is mentioned only in climbing rule
    we're supposed to understand for ourself that apply also to general rule of mouvement ? to ladders ?
    and seriously using ladder with ... your foots ... god ...
    how this interact with climbing+ ? it's like it gives 360 visor below the mini with the cylinder side on