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Hidden Deployment LT and Aro Declaration

Discussion in 'Rules' started by MrAnarchy, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. MrAnarchy

    MrAnarchy Active Member

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    Hello Hivemind,

    My Question: Can a reactive player intentionally declare an invalid aro to bring a LT out of hidden deployment?

    Example: Player's Allison and Bob are playing a game of infinity. Active player Allison spends a regular order and activates a model in her deployment zone out of line of sight and zone of control of any of Bob's models. Bob has a Noctifer LT in hidden deployment and prone in his deployment zone and declares the aro dodge. This aro is invalid because it lacks Zoc and lof to Allison's model, thus according to the wiki results in an idle.

    My interpretation: Based on my understanding of the rules for ARO and Idle this would fully reveal the model on the table. Is this interpretation correct?

    Supporting links:
    ARO: see #5 https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#ARO:_Automatic_Reaction_Order
    Idle: https://infinitythewiki.com/Idle

    Finally, what implications and uses does this have?
     
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Yes it's correct. Main uses that I know of would be revealing a hidden Lt just in time to prevent going into LoL; revealing a hidden guy to have their order in your pool on your turn; and clearing a mine.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you can do this. Since declaring e.g. Dodge is a cancellation trigger for both Hidden Deployment and Camouflage, your unit will now stand on the table with neither. Then when you measure the Zone of Control you will find out you have declared an ARO for which you do not meet the requirements of and will then perform Idle.

    Uses include hiding where a Sphinx is standing for the first turn while being able to use a TacAware order on it; hiding the presence of a Noctifer or similar LT while avoiding Loss of Lieutenant at the start of your turn. Edit: Uses also include making your opponent seriously confused and waste time flipping through the rulebook.
    Implications is that you run the risk of missing an opportunity to use this meta-tactic if your opponent uses units that doesn't generate AROs.
     
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  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Or if your opponent pass le last order...
     
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Which is easy to counteract since you can just start revealing your HD Lt etc as soon as it's safe during the last 5 or less Orders.
    Unless your opponent is willing to forfeit 2 or 3+ Orders to get you into LoL it's easy to counteract (after someone pulls it off against you). Even against a Hacking heavy setup 2nd to last Order is completely safe, 1 remaining Order

    I'd say it's usually way harder to tell if your opponent runs a Hidden Deployment Lt.
    A Cutter Lt would usually be in a list with basic Fusiliers that can be Lt or in Vanilla where the missing points could be any Swiss+Hexa/EB combo.

    And since table wide willy nilly ARO declaration is beyond stupid anyway, here's how to do it without losing your Marker State.

    Abuse one of the Hidden Deployment cancellation conditions:

    >They delay their ARO against a Marker.

    Just wait until your opponent moves any Camo Marker, Impersonation Marker etc and Delay ARO with your Cutter Lt 40" away. Delay ARO and never follow through with declaring anything (you're not forced to do so).
    Now you even get to keep your Camo State.
     
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  6. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    Do you need the marker to break stealth for that though?
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Someone else on your team will need LOF, against the first Short Skill to cancel Stealth.
    Or you need a Camo Marker without Stealth.
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    The hidden unit still won't get to declare/delay an ARO against the Stealthy camo marker. Only the units with LoF can declare AROs.
     
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  9. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Another model having lof is not enough to break stealth for everyone, i believe?

    Ninja'd :)
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    This wouldn't be half as fun if this wasn't only true because of an FAQ (which I forgot about) specifically adding a functionality that Stealth doesn't have (as usual with Stealth FAQs) by allowing Stealth to work outside of ZOC (which Rulebook Stealth doesn't).

    Point still stands.
    Stupid interaction and you can abuse it just fine against any Marker without Stealth, with Stealth turned off or in LOF to your Hidden Deployment trooper.
    You shouldn't be able to declare random AROs to break HD (but you totally can).
     
  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    You just need a single model in LoF and declare LOOK OUT. This allow ANY model do declare a Dodge (PH -3) to only change facing, that reveal the model
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You can already do that against any non Marker. Kinda the whole point of this thread.

    That dies let you reveal indirectly against a Camo Marker you can't see though (which adds yet another option to put your HD Lt on the board before your turn starts).

    The point of delaying against a Marker (i.e.a Daylami or Libertos without Stealth) instead of a regular trooper is to keep your Marker State and only cancel Hidden Deployment.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That FAQ just matched it to the Spanish text.
     
  14. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Just above, there was Stealth involved, this is a remark to that (and that Stealth does not work in LoF).
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Correct me if I misremember that, but didn't CB declare the english rules the "most official" version?

    Since we have a Wiki and all that, can't we just... Errata the rules if parts are missing instead of patching them via FAQ?
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I think that may have been stated at some early point for N3. I'm not aware of anything for N4.

    That's not my call, but the PDF would be the crunch point, not the wiki.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I remember that being said, but it was also true that the spanish rules turned out to be correct more than the english rules, especially for ITS.

    Pretty awkward when the English community discovered they'd been playing Decapitation wrong for a fucking long time.
     
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  18. Dementor

    Dementor New Member

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    Hey, ijw, any comments on initial question? Is it okay to pretend do be an idiot to run such kind of interaction to reveal a HD model across the game board?
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, as answered in the first two replies. ;-)
     
  20. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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