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hidden deployment above enemy trooper

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Sangarn, Oct 21, 2019.

  1. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
    Warcor

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    I just got into a situation in a tournament recently:

    me VS JSA
    I activate my fireteam and without knowing it I put my kamau sniper just above an hidden deployment enemy trooper in my first short skill move: a nnnninja !
    my opponent declare a BS attack in ORA on my fireteam, I declare dodge for my second short skill

    I told him that he couldn't reveal his ninja atm because his deployment was invalid (having the mine rulling in mind https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...pping-with-movement-declarations.25662/page-3)
    but because he had already revealed his hidden troop I agreed to let him put his ninja 1 inch next of my kamau

    what is the proper way to play this ?
    A: he can't reveal his hidden trooper because the deployment is invalid ?
    B: he can deploy to the next closest emplacement available ?
    C: he can deploy before my kamau getting above him so I have to move my kamau elsewhere?

    I know it's just another rare rule thing but it really happened ! ^^
     
  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    In this case the movement isnt resolved until the end of the order so the Camo Marker ending up in the same position would stop the movement early. I believe?
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Movement is resolved immediately upon declaration.
    Ninja can and will reveal. The only sane way to handle it is to place the Ninja the absolutely shortest distance removed from its intended position possible - Ninja isn't allowed to enter Engaged state because during reactive turn the only way to take that initiative is to declare Engage.

    Basically, next time make that 1" a 1mm.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Real-world time, there are lots of stories of ghillied snipers getting stepped on by people looking for them.

    It's also pretty much impossible to get into melee from there.
     
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  5. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    so there is nothing in the rules that solves this ?

    the problem with: "just put the mini in next spot available" is: who choose ? Because in my case the 1 inch movement can cancel the LoF for the shot, the ninja's spot was just above the stairs

    imo he can't deploy because you can't deploy on top of another trooper
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Locally we follow the same guideline proposed by @Mahtamori

    'Least disturbance' really is the only sane way to resolve the situation. Whatever the minimum possible movement would be to place the hidden deployment model on the table but not engaged.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's impossible to move the Ninja the least amount possible and cancel LOF, unless the Ninja can't physically be placed anywhere except where it would fall off a building, but I'd still recommend treating the placement... fudging... as movement of sorts from the intended position in order to cope with the rules and situation.

    In either case, there shouldn't be a choice involved. Least distance possible really is that. Get a caliper out if necessary :)
     
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  8. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    well he was 100% in the same spot as my kamau ^^: a corner of the building
     
  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    If the Ninja declared an ARO that reveals him,
    doesn't he count as being revealed for the whole order,
    so the Kamau cannot end his movement in that spot?

    P.S. The ninja was already deployed, just still hidden.
    It's not like "Hm, I want to deploy my ninja now in that spot over there..."
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's still impossible to not put the Ninja where he can't draw LOF to the Kamau. Your Kamau used Move to get there, correct, and didn't Climb or Jump? There must at the very least exist a path that the Kamau Moved where the Ninja would have their base fully supported. As long as you can place the Ninja nearly, very nearly, in base contact with the Kamau, the Ninja is guaranteed to have LOF if they choose to look in the Kamau's direction (or to any point in which the Kamau existed during the order to this point).
    The Ninja doesn't count as being on the table until Hidden Deployment is cancelled. When the Ninja is revealed, that is the spot it is in, not the spot that the Kamau Moved to.
     
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  11. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    actually the kamau did not move, his fireteam did
    so the entire order that cause the ARO the ninja was 100% "inside" xD the kamau

    it's just another hole in the rule no big deal, but it's quite a funny one
     
  12. Sacapuces

    Sacapuces New Member

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    Hi, I'm the JSA player :)

    For a bit more context, on one order the fireteam moved (only the sniper) so it could get on the building corner (unknowingly cuddling a oni posing as a wall). As it was not really a good moment to reveal my oniwaban, I choose not to declare ARO. Next order he activated the fireteam again, this time keeping the sniper in place and moving the rest of the troop, offering a very tasty opportunity for a template covering at least 3 units (btwn If we choosed to allow the placement of the oni not next to the stair but the other side instead, I would not have seen one of the unit at the bottom of the stairs but the sniper would have been in the template instead + 2 other that walked past). I asked someone before declaring aro and I was told that I should be able to reveal the oni but it would shift in a way not to be engaged (ie about 1mm away from the kamau.

    I then declared the ARO and the argument followed ^^'. He allowed me to reveal and declare the aro since I revealed the position of my TO, but now after reading more post (the one about the mines), I'm really not so sure about the validity of the play. As much as I hate it, as long as there is no ruling specifying this scenario, I guess that since the space is taken for the entirety of the order, I can't reveal it at all in this place.

    On the other side, it I choose to reveal on the first order (when the space was free at the beginning of the order), I tend to agree with @Mahtamori and the oni could reveal, changing its location just enough not to be in contact.

    I can see the second situation happening much more frequently than the first, and knowing this now, I would not wait the second order to reveal so I guess it's not a big deal to be "blocked" this way, you had an opportunity to reveal before.

    What do you think ?

    In any way, a clarification in the next FAQ would be nice :)
     
  13. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    No FAQ needed. Reveal, not engaged. Shotgun away. RAW & RAI.
     
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