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Help me win IP with Tohaa :-D

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by LaughinGod, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    Okay guys, after much thought I am 99% sure I am going to run Tohaa at IP this year.
    I started playinf Tohaa back in 2015 ( traded 2 Land Raiders for 400 points Tohaa :-D ), but had to sell my army in early 2017. I starter playing Tohaa again in late 2018. I have 300 points pack + Spiral Pack + 2 Sukeuls, Kosuil, extra Clipso ( 3 total ), Rasail, Gao Tarsos, Kotail and some non Tohaa like Krakot and Libertos. I may have some other minis, but I am currently not at home where all my minis are and I have like 300 of them so hard to remember them all.
    Anyway, I don't have much experience with Tohaa recently as I've ran them only in friendly games. I did play at least once all missions that will be played at this years IP with them except Unmasking.
    Missions at Interplanetario are : Unmasking, Hunting Party, Supplies, Firefight, Frostbyte, Highly Classified.
    SpecOps extra is used.
    This is my base list, I usually just tweak this list for specific scenario when I play friendly games :
    Test
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    SUKEUL Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 36)
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    TAAGMA Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    KAMAEL (Infinity Spec-Ops) (12 XP) (Minelayer, Doctor, Engineer, Stratuscloud) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife, D-Charges. (0 | 13)
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    SAKIEL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    SAKIEL Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    Idea is that Sukeuls go with Makauls ( everyone has stealth ), they also get SymbioMates. SpecOps stratuscloud goes with Gao Rael for obvious reasons. I would pretty much keep this list as is for Hunting Party as I have 2 TO specialist that are hard to hunt down, same as SpecOps that will be sitting in stratuscloud. Multiple veterans and elite troops to get free ADHL. I also kinda like it for Firefight and Supplies. Not so sure about other 3. Any suggestions from other 4 Tohaa players in the world ? :-D
     
  2. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    That list looks pretty decent for Unmasking as well, but I would maybe suggest changing one of the Clipsos FOs for the Clipsos Minelayer, and upgrading the Sakiel to the FO since you have the extra point. While this puts an extra specialist on the table in firefight it does have symbiont armor, so could wriggle out of the Imm state as long as it is active. I have found the Clipsos Minelayer to be a great attack or harassing piece because if and when it is killed, I have not lost an FO, and having a mine in the middle of the table can direct the opponent away from an area, or get them to spend orders just to get rid of a mine.
    I would also suggest utilizing the Taagma's Holo 1 by either playing it as a Decoy Lt. or specialist. Though if you do it would probably be best to put it with one of the Sukeul teams to keep it away from the Spec-Ops.

    Just theory crafting, but a Draal with a Dazer could be useful in Frostbyte, either by hampering enemy troops attempting to hit buttons, or slowing units in the freezing zone.
     
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  3. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    I was thinking about Draal, but I would have to replace one Sukeul and Sukeuls are simply too damn good to be replaced. I could replace Gao Rael, but then I am without MSV in the list. This is my general problem with list building Tohaa, my brain thinks I can't play without 2 Sukeuls, 4 Makauls, at least 1 Kaeltar and Gao Rael :-D
     
  4. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I don't consider myself a very good player, so take anything that comes from under my quill with a generous load of salt, but I am lucky to have one of the world's best player in my playgroup, so I think even my limited experience might be of some use.

    I obviously don't know your playstyle, but I'd dump the Sukeul ML as she will probably end up dead right away if you intend to put her on ARO duty. She dies to Smoke tricks or HMG (especially if the HMG wielder is equipped with a MSV) just as everyone else, so I would better spend those points on something more nasty if I expect the unit to die anyway. 1.5|36 would buy you this, for example:
    [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    1 SWC | 34 Points

    You will get twice as many regular orders, two Camo tokens (including one Mine) to guard the mid-field and two dudes to guard you against possible impersonators or AD drops. Also, as @nehemiah already noted, I would switch one of the FO Clipsos for the Minelayer option to provide some extra mid-field ARO presence (which you would definitely need for Supplies). Taagma is a very nice inclusion -- I would actually put her in a link, pretending to be a Gao-Rael Sniper guarding a long fire lane (just make sure you cover her from the opponent's active pieces). I would also consider taking a Kriigel for his Mirrorball and Eraser, which can be used in ARO as a better version of Jammer. Draal (the Dazer loadout) is also a very good option to consider, for his 6-2 MOV + FD L2 allows to position him quite aggressively and his Dazer (if properly deployed) limits the opponent's movement around the objectives quite a lot.
     
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  5. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    one profil interesting for hunting party is the gao rael adhl in triad :

    It's elite so it gains one more adhl, and then in triad you have then burst 3 ADHL ^^
     
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  6. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    Problem is I don't have Kaauri models.
    Sukeul ML is for me more offensive piece, I need some AP in my list and ML Sukeul is best thing I could field.
    Yeah, but this is something I can use in 1 mission. In 6 mission tournaments you can't afford to dedicate 1 list to 1 mission. I don't think Gao Rael ADHL would be better than Spitfire in any other mission.
     
  7. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    You have Reex from the Spiral Corps box, so surely you can use them as Kaauri. Some people even find them a better representation of the unit.

    Sukeul HMG Triad should be your main offensive piece, and Gao-Rael Triad should be a backup one. ML is a rather poor choice for offensive due to low burst and awkward efficient range. With HMG you can easily outrange/outshoot most ARO pieces, while ML is only efficient against short-range ARO, which is usually hidden in Total Cover.
     
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  8. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    @n21lv ML is for TAGs, with Symbiomate and mimetism I can have some great odds of killing TAGs long range with very few orders. HMG wouldn't be as good. But I see your point. I still like double Sukeul, mimetism, stealth, multiterrain ( there will be special terrain rules on tables at IP, if I am not mistaken on every table ) and veteran, that is just yummy. She has it all :-)
    If I exchange it for Draal for example, I get some FD but that isn't as important to Tohaa as I have 4 triads I can move very order efficiently. Stratus I got on SpecOps and I don't want any more specialist in Hunting Party and Firefight, and Sukeul gets free ADHL in Hunting Party unlike Draal. If you an example list how you would've done it differently I might be able to understand better.
     
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  9. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    I use the ML Sukeul as an offensive piece to with a pretty good success rate, (there are always exceptions depending on what you set her up against, but usually it has been a matter of being hit with a crit from DA or other 2 wound ammo). When going second against armies with MSV2 and smoke, or other really poor match up, I will generally keep her head down, and try deploy my midfield units so they can harass enemy units once they are about half way up the board and keep them from getting into my back lines. This is where the Clipsos Mine Layer can be really useful.
    She can also be a really nasty close up attack piece with her Light Shotgun. Burst 3 in a triad, with BS19 within 8" and mimetism against anyone firing back.
     
  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I can second this - our pre-eminent local tohaa player (before he had to go into the west on a fulbright scholarship and leave his armies behind) had a lot of success running a Sukeul missile as the pointy end of an attack triad. He'd use the shotgun to clear corners to the enemy DZ, then fling missiles down cross-board lanes into clumped enemies. It was very well-rounded and you can easily add something with a rifle, pherobooster or marksman rifle into the link alongside the ubiquitous makaul to keep up firepower in the intermediate ranges.
     
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  11. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    There are three obviously objective based missions and two kill missions, with hunting party being the unwanted cousin nobody likes to see at the family gathering.

    I am usually trying to build my lists for certain missions and if there is one mission that doesn't really fit anywhere, I'll tune the lesser used list to somewhat meet the requirements of that mission.
    In this case, it would be your “Kill List“ to tune.

    The list you showed us in your opening post has 4 specialists in it. That's obviously too many for hunting party. Chances are, one of your specialists will accidentally give the opponent an opening to glue them and all of a sudden, you're behind for the sole reason of bringing too many button pushers to a gun (or glue) fight.
    Following the assumption that this is your list for HC, Supplies and Unmasking, I don't really understand why you're not running the Sukeul FO Lieutnant. He on his own can do pretty much half of the objectives in Highly Classified (don't know the exact number) and is also a decent tool against TAGs, since he has a K1 Combi Rifle.

    I don't really see the use of the two Sakiels you got in group two besides providing two relatively expensive orders, either.
    Do you plan to use them for anything but backline defense? Because a bunch of Kaauri can do that, too. Especially if you drop three of them into supressive fire. Reex are indeed great proxies for them.

    One last note on the Draal: Just take him. He's too good not to. At least give him a try while testing!
     
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  12. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    What's your second list?
    And I would switch the Taagma against a Kriigel. It gives you the possibility to react against MSV2 troops or use your Stratocloud even if a MSV2 Troop is watching.

    Test
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    SUKEUL Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 36)
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    KRIIGEL Submachine Gun, Phero-Booster / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    KAMAEL (Infinity Spec-Ops) (12 XP) (Minelayer, Doctor, Engineer, Stratuscloud) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife, D-Charges. (0 | 13)
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    SAKIEL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    KAMAEL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    EDIT:
    And the SMG can be good against hard targets too.
     
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  13. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    From my experience, if my opponent allows me to come into the ZoC of his troops, it is usually someone who's wielding a Chain Rifle or Flamethrower, or is a Crazy Koala.
     
  14. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    If you expect your opponent to allow their TAG to be in LoF from your DZ and be inside ML's +3 rangeband, you're seriously underestimating them. I would rather expect to see their TAG in Total Cover protected by some direct template guys, Mines or Perimeter weapons if they are going second. Sure, if you can catch the TAG in the 32..40" range -- lucky you, but expecting that is a slippery slope to defeat.

    A more order-intensive, but less luck-based approach is to use a Makaul triad that includes at least two Makauls, each armed with a different CCW -- one Viral and one DA (for obvious reasons). By carefully positioning the Triad, you can approach the TAG under Eclipse Smoke and engage it in CC, moving as much Triad members as possible to help. With even 2 members in BtB, you're rolling 2 dice against their one and they will have to roll 2..4 saves against DMG17. And not only that, you're also essentially disabling one of their active pieces for a good amount of time. AND it's much more probable that you will down the actual fucker in CC than in a shootout, because once it's Unconscious, you can declare Coup de Grâce and kill it dead. If you just shoot it, some S1 remote will just heal it and you're back to square one.
     
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  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    So there's this sweet rule called Symbioarmour, which you can augment with a piece of equipment called a Symbiomate...
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Just as an addendum to this, you should generally combine the above with ARO manipulation to force a change facing dodge. However, it's very order intensive. Tohaa CC is perhaps the ultimate trade of orders for a sure result, which I like a lot, but has certain practicality implications.
     
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  17. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    Here is my attempt to massage that list slightly
    The Kerail is there to function as something of a Bunker buster and punish anybody that doesnt leave out toys to get shot by your big guns.
    I've added an extra Kaeltar but if you want to stick with one don't run it in the same group/triad as your Lt.
    Clipsos are great, but personally I find two of them is often excessive, the second kaeltar retains the number of specialists whilst the liberto gives you expendable midfield roadblocking.
    The Taagma doesn't make the cut, maybe if you are really wedded to it replace the Kamael and the Libertos for a Tagmaa and Delegate.

    Test
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    SUKEUL Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 36)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAMAEL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    KAMAEL (Infinity Spec-Ops) (12 XP) (Minelayer, Doctor, Engineer, Stratuscloud) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife, D-Charges. (0 | 13)
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    SAKIEL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    LIBERTO Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  18. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

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    DRAAL ME BABY
     
  19. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    Sukeul/Makaul Triad has stealth, it doesn't really care about perimeter weapons AFAIK. Same goes for Jammers.
    TAGs are hard to hide, especially on more open maps. If there is a vertical surface I can climb with Sukeul ML I will find a favorable range band for ML, believe me :-D Still, let's say I don't take Sukeul ML, what should I replace it with and for what benefit ? I am still not sold on Draal as a Sukeul replacement.
    I was thinking about using K1, but it's use is questionable. This is the era of order spam lists and K1 is rubbish against anything that is under ARM4 or 5 ( someone did the math while back, I forgot where is the breakpoint for k1 ).
    Second Sakiel was there because I had points for it and wanted to use something that can go into Triad. Since I have only 4 orders in Group 2, wanted to make full Triad for order efficiency. I do see benefits of multiple Kauuri tho, I will see if I can proxy them with Reex as they are basically useless anyway and was thinking about selling them.
    Kerail is a no go, don't have the model, don't have anything to proxy it with. And since no one is selling Infinity locally, there is no way items get in time for me to bring them to Spain.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That's just for K1 Sniper Rifles.

    For a K1 Combi the breakpoint is ARM1.
     
    #20 ijw, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019