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Haqqislam Negativity Thread

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by LoganGarnett, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    You get the idea.

    Tarik (The Man)suri hits like a truck, but is one of the most underwhelming CC combatants. It doesn't help that his sculpts carry a big-ass sword, making you think that getting an Infinity equivalent of a Space Marine (- the power armour) to the close combat is a way to go.

    Same with Khawarijs, but with even less effectiveness and lower chances of survival. Also our worst super-soldiers, even if you manage to make a couple of neat plays with their jumps. At least the loadouts a nice.

    Mukhtars' concept looks like a more edgy Raoul Specor wannabe.

    Zhayedans are even less exciting than Khawarijs performance-wise.

    Does anyone ever pick Avicenna in their lists? Especially in HB/Vanilla, where you can pick a Ghulam Doc + 2 Ghazis for her cost?

    Maggie is still the least fun TAG in the game, the only reason to ever play her is because her design is super cool. Or because you want to screw up your opponents' links with a well placed Mine Dispenser shot.

    What are our HI choices? We have:
    1) a plain and boring one
    2) a bit heavier plain and boring one
    3) an overcosted and overloaded bullet sponge of a toolkit
    4) a shooty one with our common "wannabe cc specialist but is better at shooting" syndrome guy, aka the only cool one.

    Hands down the worst TO trooper. Yeah, he's got some cool tricks, but if you want to utilize him well, you should pick more expensive loadouts, aka Doc and Hacker to at least slightly justify his cost. And why would anyone ever pick a sniper with such horrible BS?
     
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Fire Teams.
     
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  3. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I approve of this thread's premise.

    That said, I have to disagree with a few things. First being Tuaregs who are basically Haqq crocs with not much to differentiate them by, although they have their up and downs. And crocs are generally seen as very solid, so there's that. Not proxy, I guess, so... Also, Tuaregs have some bad profiles, but most unit do. I'd judge units by those profiles you'd actually field.

    Maggie is definitely not the most boring TAG, if only because there are some other MBTs, equally dumb but slightly more expensive. I do take massive issue with the direction CB took with it last update, yeah.

    I wouldn't call Fasid a bullet sponge tbh, very few things in Infinity deserve this title tbh. Definitely not a guy who is very good at losing f2f, ARM or not.

    More on topic though:
    I'm not looking forward to Mukhtar minis as well. At least unless they re-consider their designs.
    I would also put Ramah on my list that failed to meet expectations, but I think I ranted enough about that already.
    I really dislike how CB tries to give everyone everything without caring that it means faction lose their uniqueness. On a Haqq note, we have Tohaa and Spiral getting "our" impersonators (I do know that CA exists, thank you).

    Any specific ones or links in Infinity in general?
     
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  4. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Wonder why this wasn't created yet. Perhaps I'm the only one pessimistic enough to do it. Perhaps I should even start playing Yu Jhing at this point :P

    I just compared them to Spektrs. Sure, they are a tiny bit pricier and can't provide you a joy of fielding an HD Doctor, but:
    1) They get an FO profile
    2) BS 12 and a better (MULTI) rifle actually makes them decent snipers.

    Also, please forgive my harshness, but judging units by actually used profiles makes Zhayedans a great unit!.. (I still stand on sharing a Ghulam with them. They are basically veteran Ghulams, are they not? Come on, CB!)

    Was trying to forget the traumatic experience of him getting one-shot on Turn 1 every time I fielded him except for the first game.
    Well. At least now Haqq recieved an actual bullet sponge that is Namurr (well, still depends on the situation)

    Our mixed fireteams, I presume? Nonsense that is Ramah with some incompatible skills (like different MOV's, Super-Jump vs No Jump), Asawira-boosting Muyibs (actually I quite like it, but won't allow myself being too positive in my own negativity thread).. But that's just an uneducated guess.

    Oh, how could I have forgotten. Where are our Akbars? The only one in the game is in a Cube-less HI, while our new kid over there seems to have lied everyone on Defiance about his prestigious Akbar Doctor University diploma when in fact he only has a diploma from some random medical college!
     
  5. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, enough of my local folks could join you. It has gotten to the point people are getting rid of their Haqq armies, for what it's worth.

    Well, I probably don't know zen of solo snipers, so I don't field too bad about Tuareg sniper being bad. In other roles they are sort of decent, I guess.

    I mean, profiles you don't take don't affect the game in the slightest, so I think it's pretty fair.
    As for Zhayedans, those two profiles they are only ones that matter, but they are still pretty lackluster. They could be used in RTF if they had sensible link options, but they don't. BS 12+3 guys that don't do anything else while costing you ~30 pts a pop are just not that great.
    Speaking of links, I guess this is where baseline unit not being good comes into play, since they cannot into proper mixed links, but in 2019 I don't know what's worse, heh.

    At this rate we'll probably see them somewhere in O-12 or some not-CA "human faction" sooner.
     
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  6. AssaultUnicorn

    AssaultUnicorn KTS is the best unit

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    Well, at least that's one thing going for the unit uniqueness. I guess CB does not want such a powerful skill to be somewhere other than a non-cube 40-pts HI platform.
     
  7. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    Balanced Breakfast Haqq (Mukhtar DT, Hawwa Liason)
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    BARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Lieutenant Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 37)
    TUAREG Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
    FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    HAWWA' (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    SHIHAB REMOTE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle + Light Shotgun, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]9 [​IMG]4
    KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    DAYLAMI Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 7)
    DAYLAMI Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 7)
    DAYLAMI Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 7)
    DAYLAMI Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 7)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Not intended in a challenging tone b/c all of us are entitlted to our own personal opinions and that of others - but are people getting rid of their haqq armies like purely a local meta thing? only becuase I feel haqq actually has a lot of things going for it. You've got decent smoke shoot on a bio-rui shi (muktar), you have the 4x coordinated with daylami (WHICH I LEARNT IS THE SAME AS USING WUTH TH ML CAMO THE MORE YOU KNOW), you have mutts, you have a decent lt hacker with strong coc and you have decent to good midfield specialists.
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Are you actually high or are you trolling?

    Compare him to the extremely highly regarded KHD Ninja and for 4 extra points you get a unit that can bring your dudes back on 18's on the frontline, push buttons on 15's (18's if specialist bonus is applicable), get an ACTUAL gun in the form of a Rifle, flank and shoot with a Shotgun on 17's AND he also comes with AP mines. The Doctor Tuareg is quite simply one of the best TO specialist infiltrators in the game and it is only really the Crocman FO profile that competes with him, but that's incidently because the FO Crocman is actually also one of the best toolbox TO Infiltrating specialist in the game.
    Honourable mentions goes out to Clipsos FO, who's entire premise is being insanely cheap and extremely barebones and the Malignos KHD (who only really gotten decent because that one profile rapes the point formula with both the discounted hacking Device and the SMG).

    This, however, is entirely true. That profile is hot garbage. I mean at least the Ninja Sniper has the decency to bring a MSR but that's not saying much, as that profile is also hot garbage.
     
  9. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    Oh lol thought you talking to me.

    No the Taureg fucking owns I don';t know what the other dude is talking about. TO MArker state is always good - and the Taureg lives in a faction with Mutts, Smoke and Muktars....
     
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  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    This at least used to be a major theme in CB's design for a while. Powerful abilities were often denied access to their seemingly natural perfect combos, and your toolboxes usually had to choose which of their abilities are going to be a dead weight this turn/match. Not everything played out like that, but it was common. It sure works like this when it comes to our doctors in general where most units are subpar candidates to spend orders on healing them, and Akbars specifically who don't work with the best 2W pieces in the game (and their own link cannot sidestep reliability "penalty" associated with using akbar level).

    This theme seem to go away since the latest publication or so.

    I obviously cannot talk about trends outside of local meta, and Haqq wasn't exactly common here in the first place, at least from what I can see. It's worth noting that people hanging around this meta and occasionally going to tournaments are exposed to TI-placing/winning level of play, which makes them a bit harsh in their judgement of armies.

    Reasoning ranges from "I'd rather play my OSS/Aleph/Shas/Nomads" to "Spiral does same playstyle but more reliably" to "PP actually cares about testing and patching their game", so make of that what you will.

    I'm not one of those folks, but if I was a bit more rational and less lazy I'd setup a firesale. But my reasons have more to do with fading interest in wargaming in general and interest in "hobby part" which never existed for me in the first place, so nothing to do with "Haqq negativity" per se.

    I mean, I have some negativity to share, but not to the point of "I'm done with the game and I'm selling everything because of it".
     
    #10 Barrogh, Dec 9, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  11. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Well, I guess you guys are right about the specialist Tuaregs.high WIP and mines do make them great button pushers.
    Eh.. Perhaps I should start terrifying my opponents again by placing a single Nasmat as the last mini just to make sure they understand - Tuareg is waiting for them. The paranoia should slow down enemy movement a bit.. But I still find BS 11 unworthy of such an elite unit.
     
  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    BS11 on a Infiltrating TO unit goes a long way, it's very easy to deny cover when you have marker state and start midfield, shooting things out of cover is basically the same as if you were BS14.

    CC is a tool, you don't just CC everything. With CC23, 6-4 MOV and Super-Jump, you can get into CC with most things and come out ahead. He's going to lose to dedicated CC troopers, but even the best CC trooper in the game would not want to do a dice off with another CC-focussed trooper, it's going to be a 50-50 at best and those are always terrible active turn odds.

    Maggie might be boring, but Haqq has one of the best way to support their TAG. Between Mutts and Daylami, you should have a decent coverage to protect her. She's also pretty cheap. She's basically a Guija with less bloat, 10 points cheaper and in a faction that can benefit a lot more from a direct gun since the rest of your faction is already very good at indirect encounters.

    - - - - -

    Each faction have their own strength, not all troopers in a faction can be the flashy toy that pushes the boundaries of that faction's strength.
     
  13. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    The biggest thing with Haqq is that they are designed to 'trade up' exchanging low point for higher points. if you play that strategy you will do well. You need to be willing to sacrifice models just to slow down your opponent. Most factions have a couple great higher cost models, Haqq has fewer that fall into that category. That often makes players have a feeling of being under powered. Our selection of efficient mid range profiles is huge compared to other factions. But few of them stand out as great.

    On several occasions I've tried power combos (ex:haris of asawira before they could join Muyib) and they just didn't perform. In N2 QK had a couple nice options for power pieces (Azrail fire team with lots of Hafzas), But that got nerfed at the same time that other factions got better. I personally link that change to the retirement of QK. Since people wanted to play the new shiny when QK for worse. With the last refresh having Asawira in a Muyib\govad link haqq got some options, but not as many other factions.

    Haqq is good for the trade up strategy, but if you want power pieces go get Achilles. Not every factions plays the same, haqq may not be for you. I used to be a Haqq purist, but it got very old quickly during the period when the Azrail fireteam (QK) was removed, and before the Asawira got added to the muyibs. It didn't have anything that could take on things head to head, and only had the tricks which most people already new how to avoid. I'm started switching factions keeps it interesting, but have been returning to haqq now that we can add out under-powered HI into links to go head to head with other power pieces. Admittedly I do think they could use a couple new shiny pieces.

    My list of profiles that are better than their average counterparts, but not shiny.
    • Barids: Fairly cheap, pitcher gives lots of range
    • Daylami: are very basic and cheap, and panzerfaust profile is the best disposable aro options available.
    • Halqas: extremely good cheerleaders in mission claiming zone. 3 of then can easily hold a zone without having to spend any order getting there.
    • Nafatun: very good corner guards\chearleaders
    • Saladin: One of the best leaders in the game. I think most of the other stratego models are a lot more expensive.
    • Farazan\Hanzukat\al'hawwa: all very efficient button pushers, but not flashy.
    • Leila: one of the most versatile wildcards in the game, cheap and functional.
    Haqqs list of shiny profiles is a little short
    • Tarik
    • Fiday
    • Ghazi
     
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  14. Ariwch

    Ariwch Tournament benthotic lurker

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    One of our clubmates with vast experience with HB considers Avicenna a very solid choice.
     
  15. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I hate the forum software some days.

    My negativity goes to fire teams. I read about them and looked askance and judged silently way back at the end of N2. I shrugged, as it was what it was and simply had to be lived with. At the time, a fire team was supposedly a group of troopers who trained extensively together. At the time it was conceptually limited to all of the same unit. Yes, there were exceptions here and there (Yu Jing "agents", Hafza "not leaders" leaders, etc) But the concept was pretty straight forwards.

    Oh the forums were well rife with the "value" of the various ones. Which changes nothing really from how they respond today. Then CB decided to mix things up and give players what the forums had nearly begged for... years?... mix teams with the one thing they actually wanted out of a unit and padded it with the most useless filler they could find. All so one could stack the fire team bonuses into an uber-shooter.

    It still makes me pucker a bit every time a new profile comes out and 99% of the time the evaluation is based on... you guessed it... fire team validity. Not faction capabilities being expanded. Not on it's value for itself.

    Then down to the table view.

    Fire Teams make me work at least twice as hard to do things. Simply because five models are standing around smoking cigarettes together and playing some cards. Anything that would be cool in a video game is simply banned from working. Can't use Stealth. They nearly match or do match my shooting. Surprise Shot? Hahahahahhahha. So much for Solid Snake.

    I so wish fire teams were not just a pile of passive bonuses.
     
    #15 Papa Bey, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  16. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I suppose these are supposed to be Haqqislam related...
     
  17. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    I mean, your post is highly relevant considering the salad fireteam that is the Ghulam Core in Ramah.
     
  18. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Ramah completely missed the mark for me. I didn't even have any real expectations as to what it "should" have been. Not that the book really gave me any insight story wise...
     
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  19. Doa

    Doa Well-Known Member

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    I can understand mixed fireteam but should be background reasons
    An Aquila or orc leading a ft of bolt/fusilier
    Asawira leading govads/muyibs
    Or special Character joining these units, not a completely mix of different unit
     
  20. KwarkyMats

    KwarkyMats Well-Known Member

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    The Zhayedan got a dope as hell box, but I only occasionally use the one from Operation Red Veil.
    This makes me sad :(
     
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