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Guts Rolls and Smoke Grenades

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Jun 5, 2018.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So I know that if an enemy throws a smoke grenade or shoots one from a launcher and the blast includes one of your own troopers, they can dodge. But are they still able to make guts rolls (and fail them and leave the blast zone) if they don't or fail to dodge?
     
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  2. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Guts rolls explicitly apply to non-lethal Attacks from weapons/equipment/Hacking Programs. This COULD be a place where that line "even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack" applies, however it looks rather like a Smoke template could trigger a Guts Roll.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They trigger a Dodge, so you're certainly hit by them.

    I'm fairly certain that your movement stops as soon as you leave the Danger Zone (ie as soon as you're entirely outside of the Smoke). So you'd still be able to be hit by a trooper inside the Smoke.
     
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  4. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    "Up to 2 inches" as long as you're following the rules for Guts movement I don't see why you couldn't move the full 2 inches. You'd have to be really close to the edge of the circular template for this to be enough to make a difference to someone trying to approach you though.
     
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  5. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Guts Roll:
    • If the troop is inside a danger zone, such as the Area of Effect of a Special Skill or a weapon that uses a Template or that requires no LoF, it must move up to 2 inches in order to try to exit the danger zone, or declare itself Prone if it can prevent further Attacks that way.
    • If none of the previous cases apply—because a 2-inch movement is not enough to improve the troop's Cover or make it abandon the danger zone, because the troop cannot go Prone, or for any other reason—, then, if player desires so, the troop does not move at all and performs no actions.
    If the trooper can't leave the dangerzone, because the template is centered (enough) on him, he must go prone. No move. Did I get that right?​
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Daniel Darko I'd think so. The situation I'm recalling is one in which one of my models was clipped by a smoke grenade from an enemy model, so 2" of movement would have gotten my model out of the blast.
     
  7. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    This is really weird and not something I've ever considered.
     
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  8. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    That's from Guts. So yeah it would appear that Smoke would trigger it. Smoke is a type of non-lethal ammunition. Throwing or shooting a grenade is an attack. If you're covered by the template then I'd say you were hit by the attack.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In the situation that came up, a model was trying to use smoke grenades to approach a plasma q-drone. Guts to get out of the way would have given me a round of shooting.

    I think the real naughtiness is to use it on your own models so they can guts out of the way of, say, an MSV sniper staring them down.
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    That's going to have me scratching my head in the way I mentioned in the Neurocinetics thread; you're going way outside of what I consider to be the normal understanding of how attacks and guts work in Infinity.

    Frankly, if a model dropping smoke at its own feet is considered to be attacking itself and can trigger a guts roll on itself, we have a problem.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Man, I didn't even think about doing it to yourself. That's funny.
     
  12. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    I agree with @toadchild on this one as far as using your own munitions to trigger guts checks, which is something I never even thought of. If that were true, then wouldn't medikits also trigger guts checks?

    • Used remotely, a MediKit is a piece of Equipment that acts as a Non-Lethal BS Weapon. If the user spends one Short Skill and passes a BS Roll with all applicable MODs (Range, Cover, Camouflage and Hiding, ODD...), the target gets to make just a PH-3 Roll.

    As far as enemy munitions go, I could see how guts might be valid with enemy smoke.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is why we need a "please address these issues in FAQ/errata" thread.
     
  14. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    You can't declare an attack on a friendly. If an attack was going to "effect" them in some way, it would be cancelled. We know this explicitly. We also know you can drop smoke on yourself.

    So either the Smoke template doesn't count as an attack against friendlies, or it doesn't count as an attack against anyone.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You can target friendlies with smoke grenades.
     
  16. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Right, this is part of my point. You can't attack a friendly, so a smoke template must not count as an attack against a friendly, or else we wouldn't be able to do that.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's definitely still an attack. Read the "targetless" trait.
     
  18. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Hence it cannot be considered an attack against them, or it would be canceled.

    At this point we're doing what @macfergusson said - figuring out if Smoke is not an attack only against friendlies, or if it's not an attack against anyone at all.
     
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  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Does clipping a model with a template count as targeting them though? Clipping a nearby camo marker with a template doesn't count as targeting them, because you can't do that without intuitive attacks.

    Not that I'd expect to ever see anyone try and pull guts rolls off smoke IRL, but in the interest of a water tight rules set it'd be something I'd FAQ/Errata
     
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