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General Newbie Help (for me) - ISS

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Gero, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Hello guys! I’ve never been a Wargamer and my first wargame is infinity, I really like it and own about 90% of Imperial Service...

    The Problem is, I can’t seem to get my head to tie together most I know about my units and rules.

    For Example: How much firepower is usually needed for a List? How many specialists should I bring? Should I Bring a Fireteam?

    I have a lot of questions and I ask you to share any Tips you guys can throw at me. Thank you in Advance! We can discuss this privately if possible as well.
     
  2. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Firstly:
    Welcome to the State Empire, the objectively best empire, anything to the contrary is propaganda and as the Imperial Service, it's your job to delet said propaganda.

    Since you are playing a sectorial, in 99% of cases, you should bring a fireteam, as that is one of the main reasons to actually play a sectorial. The tradeoff is something like this: you trade in the unit variety and versatility of the broader faction in order to focus on a certain aspect of the faction AND get access to fireteams.

    This generally depends on the mission at hand. Some missions want you to load up as many bullets as you possible can and dispense the law at full-auto, whilst others want you to have a specialist everywhere.
    I would suggest looking into units that can do both things though. Crane Hackers and Wu Ming Forward Observers are two profiles that can both do a specialists job and kill something if need be, I suppose.

    I suppose I'll just list off some stuff in the faction that I think are good for firepower and some things that make good specialists...?

    Firepower:
    You can almost never go wrong with a Su-Jian. Thing's among the toughest HI in the game, shoots with the second strongest BS in the game, and has a flamethrower to boot. But that's not the best part, the best part is it's mobility, which can let you manipulate firefights to be more favorable to you. Always great when you enemy cannot shoot back because you shot them in the back.
    The Hsien is pretty great too. It's a great shot and has a Multispectral Visor Level 2, meaning the guy can shoot through smoke screens and ignores sneaky camo shenanigans too. Couple this with the fact this faction has some decent degree of access to creating said smoke screens, and you get nice thing going on there. Can also join a Haris Fireteam of Zhanying Agents, for that extra Burst value.
    Our two Yaoxie combat REMs are highly praised as well. The Rui Shi more so than the Lu Duan perhaps, but both are great. The Rui Shi is great for a similar reason the Hsien is great: smoke screen abuse. Except this time it's on a remote that costs really cheaply and can be buffed with supportware programs to make it ignore enemy cover modifiers too. All around cool thing. The Lu Duan is a bit more complicated: the gun is a little bit weaker, but still solid, it gets a Heavy Flamethrower and loses the MSV2 ( Multispectral Visor Level 2 ) in favor of MSV1, and has a Level 2 Holoprojector, which can be used for either allowing the Lu Duan to run around with two holographic copies of itself or disguise itself as a defenseless baggage bot or misplaced Rui Shi to bait people into flamethrower range.
    Wu Ming can be formed into core fireteams with some interesting mixed fireteam options, which allows them to essentially be a giant fuck-off brick to bludgeon your foes to death with. Not much subtlety here, just penal soldiers in power armour.
    And then there are our Crane Rank Imperial Agents. These guys are your close range specialists. They can stab someone, they can shoot someone, they can even cover your foes in itchy lethal nanomachines too. Alongside that, they can be pretty versatile: take the Spitfire for a well rounded gunfighter, the hacker profile for a specialist and solid hacker who can still do well in a close distance gunfight, or grab the Sensor one and declare your dominance over the midfield and you go take out enemy infiltrators with impunity. This guy can also join a fireteam of Celestial Guard, for even more firepower.
    Oh, and the Garuda is worth mentioning too. It's a fast AD unit that can be buffed with supportware if in range.
    That can do some cool stuff.

    Specialists:
    Dakini Tactbots are very fast and cheap Paramedic specialists. Nuff said.
    Weibing REMs are pretty fast forward observer remotes with an entire list of other equipment they have that does a lotta stuff.
    Ninjas and Kanrens are our only infiltrating specialists, so getting aquainted with them is a good idea.
    The Sophotect is our only doctor and our only engineer.
    Corporate Security Units are pretty cheap too.
    Anything you can fit in your fireteam of choice should work as well.
    Can't really recall many more noteworthy specialists beyond this.

    Best of luck.
     
    BigBadFox and KestrelM1 like this.
  3. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for Answering! I seem to be terrible at managing my Crane Fireteam and my opponents also usually bring like unlimited Explosive and Fire Launchers. Nonetheless the Smoke trick has worked under great risk...

    Last night before I posted I played a match of Supplies against TAK, Limited Insertion, and well I brought a Crane Spitfire with celestial guards (including xi zhuang), a Bao Haris (Pheasant Enabled and msv2 snoipah), Sophie and Sun Tze V.1.

    I felt I had no way to answer against his Frontovik Linkteam, though thankfully I managed to create objective pressure making it inneficient to move his Linkteam (they were pretty much in total cover the whole game and seldom shot at anything).
    How do I deal with enemies in total cover effectively? Celestial Guard LGL? Wu Ming LGL?

    For a Mission like Supplies would I have been better of with Kanren/Ninjas and Su Jian for rapid objective reaching/chasing?

    And well his Dog Warrior took an abnormal amount of Physical Abuse before dying...
     
  4. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    In regard to isues with the frontovik link: your list is full of powerful ranged units and has good specialists but is lacking in mobility/a way to force the issue on your opponent. I would recommend bringing a unit capable of a more unconventional attack option. A garuda tactbot would let you flank the link and remove a vulnerable member. A ninja could walk past the link in a camo state and again attack a vulnerable member. A kuang shi (there are a bunch of direct template weapon users in faction but nothing is as disposal or effective at this as kuang shi) could use a chain rifle against which the link can either shoot or dodge and this could hit multiple troopers.
    Essentially pushing forward with light, line infantry with rifles and face to face rolls into a quality link team is a mugs game, dont do it unless you've got good odds, bring a better option and use it.

    EDIT: LGL spec fire is are good against things difficult to reach things 8-16" away that dont dodge well/at all and this doesnt really include 4+ man link teams with sixth sense L2, dont get me wrong it can work but its usually order ineffecient (and unfun but thats mostly another issue).
     
    #4 East of Irem, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  5. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Actually, one thing I'd assume to be pretty great for Supplies would have been those Dakini Paramedics.
    You get +3 to opening the crates if you do it with a Paramedic/Doctor, after all. And on top of that, they are fast AND have Mimetism for when you unfortunately need to defend yourself.
    Kanrens and/or Ninjas would work for opening the boxes, but their pretty poor for holding onto them, since they must exit their marker state to do so.
    That's at least how I'd approach this issue.

    The Wu Ming LGL is a very underappreciated gold nugget in Yu Jing, since that LGL does give him a surprising amount of opportunities. Even better if he's in a link.
    Personally though, I generally prefer it when the enemy stays in their total cover unless they are an active hindrance to what I need to do.
    So my preferred method would be to just box them in and keep them locked up.

    Also, on a complete sidenote, the Bao Haris is a bit... weird. I personally don't like it all that much, and I prefer the Hsien Haris far more for the purposes of achieving smoke+MSV2 combinations. Or just plain solo Hsien/Rui Shis or even solo Bao snipers.
     
  6. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    It does make sense, I only have the Garuda model, so I try to avoid bringing in pieces I have to proxy, though considering most of my opponents Proxy something, I should do it to level up the game field until i can get those models painted up and ready xD.

    Now this is all great advice! Thank you so much! Now for a more Basic Question: How useful are Kuangshi in Limited Insertion? I can see how they have the ability to potentially create a devastating trade, the thing is, getting the kuang shi there...
     
    Maksimas likes this.
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, another time for Section9's rules of thumb for list building!

    There are 5 basic rules of thumb, and an optional 6th.
    Orders. You need to have at least 8 regular orders in your primary combat group. This means not more than 2 models off-table in Hidden Deployment or Airborne Deployment in that group.
    Guns. This is less about spending all your SWC than it is about having a variety of different range bands covered. Shotguns, basic combis, Spitfires/Marksman Rifles, HMGs, Sniper Rifles. All of it. You win firefights in Infinity by being in your +3 or +6 range when your opponent is in -3 or -6 range.
    Specialists. These are the guys who either keep your shooters in the fight, or push the buttons to win the scenario. I like bringing one of each of the basic 4: Engineer, Doctor, Forward Observer, and basic Hacker, and that's just in a basic kill-em-all game. other missions may require more specialists.
    Speed. This is not pure MOV stat, this also includes deployment shenanigans like Infiltration, Forward Deployment, Airborne Deployment of any level, etc. Due to Infinity's order mechanic, you want to spend the least number of orders possible to do something. If that means spending an order to move AWAY from someone to get back into +3 range, so be it. Don't spend 5 orders moving someone up to shoot someone from behind if you don't have to, and especially not if you can shoot them in the face with 1 order.
    Plan. You should have a reason for every model in the list, something that you brought them specifically to do. You should also have a backup plan for when you big-bad gets killed.
    Theme. This one is the optional piece. Sectorial can start to give you a theme, but as you can imagine from my Avatar and handle I'm a bit of a Ghost in the Shell fan and make lists designed around that idea. Huh, been a while since I've thought about a Kouan Kyuuka list in Imperial SS (I'm rather upset with the Imperial SS fluff since Uprising, hence the name I'm calling them).

    So, let's get into it, for sake of example.

    The Major is pretty obviously a Ninja Hacker. I prefer to have a Combi, even on a Ninja, so that means the Assault Hacker. It's worth remembering that this does give you some vulnerability to Killer Hackers, but a Ninja does have Stealth, so isn't eating every ARO.

    Togusa is a guy with some intuition, which makes the Zhanying Agent a very good match. I made him the LT, since you can't have a Ninja LT (and Togusa does make a good field commander later in the stories, anyway).

    Batou is a big dude with a fetish for big guns. But the version I prefer is from that Standalone Complex episode "Does Not Equal", where he was packing a rifle and grenade launcher. So, Wu Ming Multi+LGL. It wouldn't be out of place to use a Su-Jian for Batou, either, but that gets into SWC limits.

    Saito is also pretty easy to choose a model for, a Bao MSV2 Sniper.

    Pazu in an infiltrator/impersonator and CC beast, which makes a Kanren a very good match.

    Boma can be hard to match up, since he's even bigger than Batou, and is a bomb tech, hacker, and heavy weapons guy. If Batou isn't packing an HMG or Spitfire, it would be good for the team to have an HMG, so Wu Ming HMG.

    Ishikawa is the team's hacker, but isn't often on-scene. So I usually include an EVObot for him.

    And then we bring a few more Tachikomas, I mean remotes, for fun. One basic Weibing, which is both a Forward Observer and a Sensor. Batou's tachikoma has that gatling, so that's obviously a Husong.

    This puts us at 266|5.5 and 9 orders. huh. I suppose we should include an engineer and/or doc, which means the Sophotect. Let's call that Proto, and give him a helperbot to get us to 300pts on the nose.

    List ends up looking like this:
    Public Security Section 9, ISS style
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    NINJA Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0.5 | 40)
    ZHÀNYING Lieutenant (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 26)
    WÚ MÍNG MULTI Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39)
    BÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    KǍNRÈN Minelayer Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt, Sniffer / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 27)
    WÚ MÍNG HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 39)
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Plan is for Saito to pick a good sniper perch, Boma to pick a good HMG perch. The EVObot and Sophy hide in the backfield. This leaves the Tachikomas, Togusa and Batou to move up to the Major and Pazu in the midfield.

    This is actually a fairly complex army to run, each piece is pretty optimized for one role with little overlap. So losing any one model hurts.
     
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  8. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Section 9! Thank you for answering! Your guidelines do help a lot, I need to give more thought to each of those guidelines when building Lists.
    I am also a Ghost in the Shell Fan, the first movie is my favorite movie ever.
    We can notice each other later, senpai.


    And yes, maybe the choice for SS was a beginner unfriendly move on my part, but it’s precisely the theme that drew me in, this force IS the one that seems most like GITS.

    Ok, I have a game on friday guys, I’ll take all of your advice into consideration when making the list, afterwards I shall show you the results and all that stuff. I don’t have time to squeeze out a BatRep for you, but I can get a Combat Log on a Order to order basis.
     
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  9. Freki

    Freki Active Member

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    As a fan of Shirow, OSS from Aleph game me more a feeling of GITS universe:
    Rudra is the most Tachikoma of all the remotes (by look), the Apsara concept is the most GITS dive hacking. Though I'll give the Dakinis are more Terminator. The Asura with cybermask makes a great Major as well.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I was really commenting that the Ghost in the Shell list is complex to run, not Imperial SS. Imperial SS can have quite a few backups in it in some builds.


    I may have to give that a try.
     
  11. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Imperial Service──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 HSIEN Lieutenant HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61) ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27) ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Boarding Shotgun, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 23) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59) 5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    Ok, so I did play that match yesterday, it was limited insertion against Ramah Taskforce on Firefight.

    The match went well in my favour for around the first 2 turns, till my 3rd turn where I f’ed up.

    First turn was simple, I got initiative, kept ninja as a reserve to kill/trade with his Mahktur Assault Hacker so my Battle Cat could do what he would do without risking getting hacked, mahktur got a single wound from Redrum surprise shot, by ninja, a second order there and he survived the damage, third order and ninja was Carbonited.

    The mahktur was on top of a building while prone, so I moved my su Jian (albeit a bit clumsily) on top of a higher building, and mowed down the dude with a spitfire, I was getting starved for orders then, so I decided to move my Kanren on the right side to set up his madtraps.

    My opponent brought two mahkturs, an enginerd, the Maghariba in duo with the Satlock Rem, Along with evo hacker and guided rem.

    His first turn consisted of moving the maghariba a bit (he didn’t want to risk moving it across the board considering the threat presented by madtraps) and shooting my Ninja, Chaiyi Flash Pulsed him and Ninja attempted Reset, she failed her reset and got mowed down in return.

    Maghariba could not shoot again since Flash Pulse did work.

    He then moved his own Chaiyi Rem, and dropped a sniffer near Cat. He got the satlock going, and proceeded to shoot the cat with guideds, cat survived the onslaught for 5 orders before dropping into NWI.

    He made his AD:trooper jump into the table near cat, and his final order was getting a bunch of guys perched on buildings in Suppresive through coordinated order.

    Next turn, I dropped my garuda behind his AD:Trooper and Fanous(chaiyi) remote, and proceeded to bring them both down with the Boarding shotgun.

    Hsien (moved him clumsily and used more orders than expected) Haris killed an engineer on top of a building and stayed put, as the maghariba had moved a bit further and was threatening LOF to my Hsien.

    His next turn, he moved his 2nd mahktur and looking down from the building (not by use of lean-out-fire which is something I wish to know if it is possible) and killed Garuda.

    He tried to Sat-lock Cat to no avail till his last 3 orders. Cat dodged and then tanked the saves, he was alive.

    His Final order was again a coordinated Suppresive.

    This is where the worst mistakes came from my part. I used celestial Guard Smoke (placed it badly I must admit) between the Hsien and the Mahktur
    And to reach LOF I had to move across an open door, where the Maghariba caught LOF of the Hsien (This why I say I placed the smoke badly, I could have covered that door as well as LOF to Mahktur) and well I FTF the Maghariba, both at 17 my 5 dice against his 1 explosive shot, he critted, Hsien died. He was both my LT and Datatracker.

    So I guess I did Panic and moved my sophotect towards his HVT got Retro-engineering done, at the cost of getting shot in the face by the Maghariba...and 5 orders...
    Final order was Cat Standing up and taking a shot at his EVO hacker which died and Cat was shot by Maghariba (smoke didn’t launch to protect him sadly) and Cat died.

    his final turn was grabbing a Panoply and that was game 9 VS 2.