Frenzy in a Fireteam

To clarify Kwisatz's question with the following scenario:

• You're in a fireteam and have frenzy
• You inflict a wound on something, whilst in the fireteam. Frenzy isn't active so nothing happens.
  
• You leave the fireteam. Your frenzy returns to the state it was in when you joined the fireteam (i.e. it's off - not activated)
• During the next states phase you check if you inflicted a wound on something and see that you did - while you were in the fireteam.

Does frenzy trigger?

Essentially - does frenzy trigger from wounds you inflicted potentially turns ago, whilst you were in a fireteam? Yes the skill is off when you're in the fireteam, but once you leave it turns back on, and it doesn't say in the rule anywhere that it doesn't check for wounds you inflicted before.

 

I see the point and i think probably you are right, i don't know if this is intentional or somethin that has not forseen. To avoid this behaviour this sentence should be rewritted with the Bold addition i guess

When he deploys, the user does not have the Impetuous Special Skill. However, if he causes an enemy to lose at least one point from their Wounds or STR Attribute, or to enter Dead State then (In This Turn) he will gain the Impetuous Special Skill in the next States Phase, and retain it for the rest of the game.

 

Maybe this will help:


If the Trooper leaves the Fireteam, any Frenzy and Impetuous Special Skills will apply again, in whatever state they were in when the Trooper joined the Fireteam.

Emphasis mine. If Frenzy was off while the trooper joined a Fireteam, it'll be off when it is no longer part of the team.

 

Or, you know, it’s an editing mistake, and that “caused” in the redundant Activation text should be “causes” so that it agrees with the effects clause. (And consistent with the N3 wording that it should have been copied from...)

Look at the effects clause again. It won’t trigger off of “turns ago” because the description of triggering is:
- If he causes ... he will gain the Impetuous Special Skill in the next States Phase...

That’s not a description that cares about whether you have caused a wound previously.
In other words, “Congratulations. Your Frenzy has activated, and does nothing at all until you fulfill the first Effects bullet point.”

 

This was my reasoning. It does seem to suggest that frenzy is checked for wounds you inflicted in that turn, in the next states phase.

However as of right now the activation for frenzy does just say that if you caused a wound then it triggers. I agree with your interpretation but I can also see how people are saying frenzy just says it activates if you caused a wound, and you did cause a wound.

 

I was certain that @ijw had answered this one and said that the trooper doesn't become impetuous - but a search has not turned up the post :-(

Absent an authoritative answer, I would agree that the Effects clause seems to be where the skill precisely describes how it works - it's triggered when the trooper "causes" a wound (in the present tense) and, once triggered, waits until the States phase to take effect. So if the trooper causes a wound while she doesn't have Frenzy (because she's in a fireteam), Frenzy is never triggered.

The Activation clause just seems to be a less detailed restatement of the Effects clause.

But maybe I'm being influenced by my apparent hallucination that @ijw had answered it that way.

 

@Mahtamori can you please add this to N4: Unresolved rules questions?

This came up again in a game for me last night. We think/hope were playing it right, but it's not clear.

 

Fair does. Added with the commentary that the rules seem to say the unit remembers if they hurt somebody

 

Thanks! But the consensus seems to be the model does not 'remember' and will not become frenzied. Also, see this thread I started on the same topic: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/how-does-frenzy-interact-with-fireteams.41090/#post-433537

 

where is the doubt??

Rule not applied. So you arent frenzy. Even you kill someone while in a fireteam, you are not frenzy, so dont became impetuous if leaves the fireteam

 

"Rule not applied" is really "Rule not applied while in a fireteam". But turning impetuous is not something that can happen when you kill someone at the end of an Order. that would be too easy; you would simply not apply the rule.

But the rule that say you become impetuous is done at end of player turn; moment at which it is possible you left the fireteam and therefore allowed to apply frenzy rules.

 

But you didnt kill anyone while outside the fireteam, so you cant trigger frenzy.

 

Edit. Re-read the rule more properly and rephrasing my motivation.

The rule's Activation states that the rule takes effect during the States step. It isn't until the States step that you actually track or take into account what the rule say. As is written is pretty clear with that, but that doesn't really change that there is an expectation for the rule to work in a less detrimental manner.

 

Rule says that you will gain effect in the end of turn(States phase). That means that check of conditions(wound inflicted+active fenzy) has been made before, I think - at the end of an order trooper inflicted wound.

Thats how I see it.

 

Fireteams, Frenzy and Impetuous

Having this in mind:
While in a Fireteam, the Frenzy and Impetuous Special Skills of a Trooper are not applied.

A non-impetuous Frenzy Trooper in a Fireteam that causes a wound when he is part of tha fireteam doesnt apply the Frenzy Skill. So when that Trooper leave the Fireteam will still being non-impetuous.

But if that Trooper, not being in a Fireteam, causes a wound, he will gain the Impetuous Special Skill. After, Trooper starts to be part of a Fireteam, and "stop being impetuous", but if he left the Fireteam, will continue being Impetuous.

And that's because the second bullet of Fireteams, Frenzy and Impetuous:
If the Trooper leaves the Fireteam, any Frenzy and Impetuous Special Skills will apply again, in whatever state they were in when the Trooper joined the Fireteam.

 

The issue is Frenzy only checks during the states phase for if you have dealt a wound with no timing restrictions listed on the activation of the skill. So if I dealt a wound last turn I still meet the activation for Frenzy this states phase regardless of if I was in a Fireteam when I dealt the wound. The skill didn't apply last turn because I was in a Fireteam but now I am not and I did cause an enemy trooper to lose a wound which triggers the activation of the skill. If it's meant to work as you describe the skills wording needs improving to reflect that.

 

mmmm I see

 

This has been a source of debate for a while now.

Frenzy doesn't say that it WON'T check prior turns, or prior orders. So if you do a wound to something while in a fireteam (frenzy is "off") and then leave the fireteam (frenzy is "on"), it will recognise the wound you did while in the fireteam and make you impetuous (at the end of the turn). The skill doesn't say it needs to have been active when you did the wound. It just needs to be active to make you impetuous.

Would appreciate an answer to this because you can justify both rulings.

 

I will gather the team to talk about this.