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Flamethrower

Discussion in 'Rules' started by seidelmx, May 28, 2020.

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  1. seidelmx

    seidelmx New Member

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    Good day:

    "A use the flamethrower. "B" use dodge. Only one dice using PH value?

    Many thanks
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Correct, you only ever roll once for Dodge and compare the result to all incoming attacks.

    Though B could also respond with a Normal BS Attack and hope they roll well on their ARM roll.
     
  3. seidelmx

    seidelmx New Member

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    Many thanks. It seems that dodging flamethrowers is relatively easy. What is the best use of flamethrowers?
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    If your opponent is dodging then they aren't shooting back, essentially using a Direct Template Weapon (DTW) like a flamethrower forces your opponent to make a choice between safety and having the ability to hurt you.

    It can be very useful on a trooper with good Close Combat ability as even if they successfully dodge, you can then get closer with the next order.

    There's also a degree of mind games that comes with having both a DTW and a normal BS Weapon. If you move into LoF of an enemy in template range they have to choose between Dodge and BS Attack for an ARO, and if they Dodge you can choose to use your combi rifle to make it a F2F, and if they choose to shoot you can auto-hit hmm with your DTW (though this obviously opens you up to a normal roll yourself).

    Flamethrowers and other DTWs are also great as a defensive ARO tool against enemy close combat specialist .

    Finally, in N3 (and most likely N4) DTWs can be used to make an Intuitive Attack, making a WIP test to attack Camouflaged troopers without first discovering them, this was one of the things left out of Code One to make it simpler.
     
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  5. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Well, the obvious choice would be "to hit several enemies at once", due to the template.

    Another would be to force the opponent into a fork situation, combined with another trooper. Basically, you threaten an enemy trooper with two AROs - one from a Flamethrower, and another from some dangerous ARO weapon like Missile Launcher or Multi Sniper Rifle in DA mode. Your opponent has to choose whether to shoot at the second trooper to force a FtF roll and maybe kill them (thus taking an unopposed Flamethrower), to shoot the first trooper, taking both attacks unopposed, but most likely killing the tsrget, or to Dodge, not removing any threats, reducing the number of dice rolled (1 for Dodge vs. 2-4 for shooting in active turn) and potentially staying in the range of the Flamethrower for a second similar fork. The fourth choice would be to split the Burst, targeting both troopers, but the opponent would still take an unopposed Flamethrower, and it will reduce the chances to defeat the shooting trooper.

    The third good use for the Flamethrower is to hit a Mimetism trooper. Flamethrower doesn't care about MODs to BS, so it might be much easier to fry a Nokken, instead of trying to shoot him.
     
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  6. seidelmx

    seidelmx New Member

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    Thanks for all the great ideas!
     
  7. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Remember that if you are within 8" of the target (zone of control distance) there is a -3 to dodge the template.

    Also consider that you will automatically hit. So if they shoot back as mentioned above they will still be hit and need to make the appropriate roll to avoid the damage, even if they hit you with a successful roll.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    "and outside LOF" is a very important caveat to add
     
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  9. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Alas, yes. This is what I get for reading internet conversations without checking the actual verbage. Why do I feel like I have to self-defense to prevent getting hosed?

    At any rate:

    Yes, the penalties are for if you sneak up behind them, more or less. -3 on that old Dodge if you are behind them, and an extra -3 if you are behind them and within 8".
     
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  10. seidelmx

    seidelmx New Member

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    -3 without LOF
    -3 within 8"

    Flamethrower (light) -6 to dogde (within 8" AND without LOF) ?

    PS. Anti Personnel mine: -3 to dodge without LOF, -3 within 8" AND -3 Dodging the Template of a Deployable Weapon = -9 ?

    Thanks
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but remember that a unit that's moving has 360ยบ LOF, so the penalty when enemy is within ZoC and outside LOF typically only happens in Reactive turn.
     
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  12. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Note that the Code rulebook was updated. Within ZOE and outside of LOF is just -3.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you're missing this line:
    " upload_2020-5-30_21-57-13.png upload_2020-5-30_21-57-27.png "

    (if it doesn't show up because of copy-pasting, it says"If Dodging a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker, the Trooper's Roll suffers a -3 PH MOD.")

    So, let's use a Gangbuster being harassed by a Jujak's Heavy Flamethrower.
    1. Gangbuster is in reactive turn and the Jujak walks around a corner that the Gangbuster isn't watching. During resolution, the distance is confirmed to be 9" away and the Gangbuster suffers a -3 to their Dodge roll because of not having LoF to the Jujak.
    2. Gangbuster survives, barely, and the Jujak walks forward still and behind the Gangbuster. During resolution, the distance is confirmed to be 6" away and the Gangbuster suffers a -3 to their Dodge roll because of not having LoF to the Jujak and an additional -3 because the Jujak is active inside the Gangbuster's ZoC, but out of sight, for a total of -6 PH.
    3. Gangbuster, having won their roll, is now watching the Jujak. Jujak moves back towards the corner and the Gangbuster, once again, dodges because they figure that with LOF they will not have any penalties.
     
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  14. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. I thought so, but I read it wrong the last time. Thank you .
     
  15. Gaiduku

    Gaiduku New Member

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    Can I just hijack this slightly to ask for clarification on dodges because, as a new player I find them quite confusing?

    BS face-to-face rolls make sense as you sort of assign one dice against another - one player with BS 3 gets to assign targets and the targets will assign a single dice as an ARO if they can.

    Yet, if I'm reading this correctly with a dodge you roll one dice and then check to see if you've dodged all incoming attacks. This is interesting as you will have different success values for each attack due to.....templates used and LOF etc.

    I guess my question is when the rules refer to a dice being "cancelled" in a face-to-face roll - i.e. when an opponents die is a higher success than my roll. In that case when a die is cancelled in a dodge does that mean all dodges fail or just that one.

    Lets say I'm being a shot at with a flamethrower template and a normal BS attack from a combi rifle. I use dodge as my second skill and roll one die. It's enough to succeed both dodges but my opponent rolls higher on the combi rifle attack and "cancels" the roll I made in that face-to-face roll. Do I

    a) Fail both and get hit with two attack because my roll was completely cancelled
    b) Fail the Combi rifle attack but dodge the flamethrower?

    Cheers everyone
     
  16. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    b) You dodge the flamethrower but get hit by the combi rifle.
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Just to expand on CabalTrainee's answer, this is shown in the CodeOne Dodge Skill, in the example of Dodge and a Deployable Weapon:

    But the Mine hits the Zhanshi, since the Mine is a Deployable Weapon and it imposes a -3 MOD to Dodge. In addition, the Zhanshi lacks LoF to the Mine, so an additional -3 MOD will be applied due to Dodging a Template Weapon without LoF (a total of PH -6). Therefore, the Zhanshi would only avoid the mine if his die's result was 4 or less. By failing to Dodge the Mine's impact, the Zhanshi will also be unable to move up to 2 inches, even though he succeeded against the Fusilier's Attacks.​
     
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  18. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    It is not that different from being shot by a single weapon with high burst.

    Trooper A shoots at you with burst 3. Trooper B dodges.

    Trooper A rolles 1,5,11 for his BS Attack (which all succeed). Trooper B rolls a 9 for his dodge.
    The 9 on dodge cancels the 1 and 5 but the 11 is higher so B only needs to do one armor roll. The 11 does not "cancel" the effect of the dodge roll on the other lower numbers.

    Even if the 11 was a critical hit Trooper B would still stop the 1 and 5 from hitting him.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It is, a bit, because the question is specifically asking about having different "success" values for the dodge. i.e. a successful dodge might be PH vs. trooper A, but PH-3 vs. trooper B.

    @ijw gave the second half of the relevant rules example where the dodge against the Fusilier is a success even though that same dodge roll against the mine is a failure. The important point is that you still only roll 1 die and compare it to the success values required for the different incoming attacks. Only on succeeding against all of them do you get the dodge movement.
     
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