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First charge into the great beyond...

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by FlipOwl, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Hello fellow Ariadnans,

    This very night, me and one of my regular gaming buddies played a game of mock N4, using many of the new rules that we know of so far. We used the 15 trooper cap, new crits, new cover, new movement and new dodge. The mission was Supplies and my opponent was playing Druze.

    I played Caledonia, my greatest love in Infinity, just because I wanted to see first hand if the rumours of her demise were true.

    Sample size is of course one, but my opponent told me, just after failing the final armour save on his final remaining model, to tell you all, that he didn't find the experience much different from before...

    If Caledonia receives even modest tweaks going into the new edition, I think we will be more than fine.

    Cheers all!

    /FlipOwl
     
    realder, Cabaray and bladerunner_35 like this.
  2. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I do not think it would be for those armies. The crit change really effects heavy armor and multi wounds models, TAGs and things like the Gama both of which are a little missing in those lists. Ariadna tends to bring enough AP or T2 that the TAGs the druze do have will feel paper thin or be really hurt when a hit goes through.

    The question about the cap of 15 I have is did the list building feel different? This is especially the case for Caledonia because they get pegged as a hoard faction. Did it change what your brought and by how much?
     
  3. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I love Druze, but I'm not sure I would use them as the baseline for a test of is the other faction viable.
     
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  4. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    You know, not every list will include TAGs just because there is a 15 order cap. Especially not a faction like Druze that has a lot of neat tricks with other units but really outdated TAGs. The same goes even for PanO that can run really efficient 15 order lists with or without TAGs.

    Regarding the list I was running, it was built around the same principles that I have played before, but reshuffled. Basically, I got an extra SASCRAP and every Galwegian turned into a werewolf, so that was a plus. The con was that I had to scale down to just one Grey link, but I put that by itself in the 5 order group to be able to use all the orders, and it worked quite well. Even before it was rare that each link would get more than five orders in a turn. When I had tried to make Tactical Window lists before I always tended to get stuck trying to shoehorn in the Grey in the big group, because that was what I was used to. Lately I have been playing PanO for a bit and learned to use fewer orders, so that made it feel quite natural to abandon the CHA swarm mentality and try something new.

    The biggest risk I faced was in going up against the linked MSV2 sniper. Previously I have always had two Greys so that if one goes down I have a second shot. This will force me to play a bit more conservatively with my link, but on the other hand it stops me from leaning on that second link like a crutch.

    What a strange thing to say. I would much rather face any other army in the hands of a bad player than Druze in the hands of a very competent one. In a tournament setting that is. For practice, the harder the better.

    What is it with trying to make it alla about faction matchups? I believe I have played CHA for long enough to be able to gauge if they are performing on par with what they did previously.

    Of course they will face new challenges, but my experience tells me that what I really had to struggle with before were other horde armies, and not having to factor those into my list building helps a lot. CHA basically has the same strengths as it used to, i.e. the ability to delete exposed high value troops with CC or AP HMGs, while having access to good infiltrators to score and harass in the midfield. Likewise, we retain the same vulnerabilities, such as facing MSV pieces buffed to the skies in well defended positions. To me, it seems like we should be able to work within the new context of the game as long as we change with the times and don't just get stuck in the mindset that we have lost something vital to our play style. We are Ariadnan, for crying out loud, not sulking kids with a disproportionate sense of entitlement!
     
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  5. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I am not say ever faction would I am saying a lot of the changes help TAGs and Multi wound high armor models and if your not using them then some of the changes, like the change to how crits work, is lessened.
     
  6. Jukebox3113

    Jukebox3113 Highlander

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    Ive made a few list useing the 15 orders. Its just different. Its now obligitory to bring the mormaer or wulver haris to make points. Alternativly bring more scots guard camo. The biggest problem ive seen so far, points are an afterthought. Its the slots your old reliables are takeing up. You want the staple volunteer core, wallace, uxia, and mcmurrough. Thats 8 slots. Sas FO, and realistically at least 2 galwegians. Thats 11 slots. What to do with the last 4? And what am i giving up?
     
  7. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Sure, that is of course true. However, I have never relied much on fishing for crits to take down heavy armour. A you said before, CHA and Ariadna in general have loads of AP that gives an even bigger bonus per point spent against heavy armour.

    I read your tone as very negative, which may not be what you intended. My objective with posting this thread was to try to provide at least anecdotal evidence that it is possible, with the right mindset, to adapt CHA to work in a new environment. Of course there will be matchups that will be difficult, but as I said before, the only lists I have had to struggle with previously are also being downscaled, so I am quite positive.

    I ran the following list:

    N4 Now!
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    S.A.S. Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (2 | 23)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    CAMERONIAN 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP CCW. (0 | 25)
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage 2 Submachine guns, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Whereas before I would have run the link in the big group I now had it in group two for better order economy. This is something I picked up playing other armies and am now bringing back to CHA. Uxia had to sacrifice herself to take out a TR bot and a sensor bot in turn 1. It wasn't viable to pump a full 8 orders into her rampage, though it might be with a different setup. I never run Wallace. Wallace is a trap ;)
     
  8. AkiPL

    AkiPL Active Member

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    I would put in some Wulvers and try something like this:

    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    'FIRSTSTRIKE' DONN (Fireteam: Haris) T2 Rifle, Grenade / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon, T2 CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    WULVER Mk12, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)
    WULVER Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 32)
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    1.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  9. Jukebox3113

    Jukebox3113 Highlander

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    A friend had brought this up to me. Dont do a regular 10 and 5 order groups, but do 8 and 7. Put mcmurrough in first group and a good haris in the second. Make your opponent decide. Do you want to deal with mcmurrough and the core or my wulver haris and what they k ow has to be uxia when it comes to first turn.
     
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  10. Duringhzar

    Duringhzar Active Member

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    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    WULVER Mk12, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)
    WULVER T2 Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33)
    WULVER Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 32)
    'FIRSTSTRIKE' DONN T2 Rifle, Grenade / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon, T2 CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    DOZER Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)

    2 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    'FIRSTSTRIKE' DONN (Fireteam: Haris) T2 Rifle, Grenade / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon, T2 CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    WULVER Mk12, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)
    WULVER Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 32)
    SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo) Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo) Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo, Forward Observer) 2 Submachine guns, D.E.P., D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo, Forward Observer) 2 Submachine guns, D.E.P., D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)

    3 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    These are probably two lists (perhaps more focused on encounters with few missions) that I would use for a tactical window
     
  11. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    @Duringhzar: I am really looking forward to seeing what can bet sone with Scots Guards if they get their move upgraded to 4-4. I have had a lot of success with the 2xSMG profile, but it is hard to get into position with 4-2.
     
  12. Duringhzar

    Duringhzar Active Member

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    Yes, the 4-4 move of the Scot Guard gives me a lot of faith to play them even offensively (with molotok, AP marksman rifle and the pair of double submachine guns, although really as they were created in that list it was to leave Wallace with the Fireteam token and that the 4 were speakers (the flash pulses ... they do haha) or to cover back since at those distances with the submachine gun and the DEP you can do a lot, in addition to being able to activate the d-charges that uxía could position

    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    VOLUNTEER Light Shotgun, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    DOZER Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Another list I had was this, it is modified from one I had with an extra order (warcor). It was one day that I said "I want to use the AVA 4 of the Cateran"
     
  13. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Nice. Coordinating attacks with Caterans can give opponents a seriously difficult choice.

    I wonder if you always build around Wallace as a lieutenant. If so, have you not found him a prime target for assassination if and when you go second?

    Personally I have only used him a couple of times, but never against factions with good lt assassins...
     
  14. Duringhzar

    Duringhzar Active Member

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    Yes, it is a troop that I quite like because of its history, internal lore in Infinity and I think it contributes a lot to the army, it is ... my "fetish troop" and yes, it really tends to be a troop that they tend to go for. , but for that I usually put at least 2 Cateran so that they already consume orders against them and in the end one learns to fight against armies with good "hunting lieutenants" (such as Shasvasti or Hassasin), hence I usually join them with Wulvers , or within a defensive core of the Scot Guard to protect it a little

    With the wulver and the smoke dodge it is usually quite protected in every aspect, the Gawgelian thanks to its WIP 14 have been quite efficient when it comes to discovering impersonated and the advantage of doing the Cateran and Gawgelian (as well as McMurrogh) make them regular

    Also, 90% of the times that I go second I usually leave Wallace as the last miniature, so in one case I can get away from the Specular Killer or the Fiday

    Have I had times of turn 1 loss of lieutenant? ... Well yes, but in the long run Wallace has always been profitable for me, although I have lists without him and they are quite useful and since I usually play Wallace, I give the surprise hahaha

    Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    VOLUNTEER Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    VOLUNTEER Light Shotgun, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    112 (Motorized) Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 20)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I am a bit confused. I though the idea of Caledoinans suffering demise in N4 appeared because of speculation of CB outright removing / mothballing / embedding the army elsewhere rather than because they are expected to suck under N4 ruleset (why would it be that bad?).
     
    #15 Barrogh, Aug 24, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  16. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    It's a bit of both, apparently. CHA has been mentioned in several posts about the new 15 order cap, as one of the factions that would become virtually unplayable due to the change. I started this thread simply as a counterpoint to the doom and gloom I saw in those threads.
     
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  17. Duringhzar

    Duringhzar Active Member

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    I do not doubt that CHA is going to be harmed with the new order limit, it also remains to see how the troops are in points and profiles, because if for example they make the Highlander Gray be without injury disability and maintain its shock immunity, it could do his most "profitable" core and argue fervently against the wulver. The same happens with the Mormaer, perhaps in the new lore the Volunteers need a more fervent leadership and re-modify their core 4 Volunteer + 1 Mormaer and that this troop is also retouched

    But on paper if it is true that Caledonia is going to suffer and it is going to be a little different, that things start to be played that they did not before (the Scot Guard in an offensive way for example, in order to have points with the haris of Wuvler and Cadin )

    Be that as it may, Caledonia will resist the Highlanders they will roar again and we will expel EC from Dawn (again) and well, they will give us rescues from several minis ... Even if they do not give us new troops, something is something
     
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