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Fireteam FAQ update

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Triumph, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So just to make sure I'm understanding the FAQ correctly

    "When creating a Fireteam: Core that includes Wildcard troopers, you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a trooper who counts as one of those units."


    [​IMG]5
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    FATHER-KNIGHT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 45)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 50)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)

    3 SWC | 225 Points

    Is the above a legal link because the Father Knights fulfill the "you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart," as they are listed in a special Order Sergeant link.

    @HellLois the wording is a little unclear as to how the fireteams are written out in the list of fireteams as many sectorials are formatted in different ways.

    Do Order Sergeant special links

    ORDER SERGEANTS Core, Special

    Special Fireteam: Core. Father-Knights can join a Fireteam: Core of Order Sergeants.

    function in the same way as say a No Line Kazak, Line Kazak link for construction in the eyes of the FAQ update

    LINE KAZAKS Core, Special Special Fireteam: Core. Up to 4 Line Kazaks + 1 Frontovik.

    Related topic: @ijw any chance the language and format for special fireteams can get standardised in the wiki at some point? Some of them are in need of being modernised, ISS is a particularly out of date one.
     
    #1 Triumph, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    No, because father knights can join the fireteam, but are not described as part of the fireteam or count as order sergeants.

    You need an order sergeant or Konstantinos for this fireteam to be legal.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well that's the problem because as per the somewhat nebulous wording of the FAQ they fit the bill of a trooper that's "listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart". FK's are listed in Order Sergeant links.

    The fireteams need to be redone with proper definitions of what counts as "being listed" because these units are listed in the fireteam charts. Right now the language is very loose.

    It goes further because technically if I do this:


    [​IMG]4
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    FATHER-KNIGHT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 45)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 50)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)

    2 SWC | 172 Points

    I have a 4 man core that doesn't interact with the FAQ ruling but still has no Order Sergeants.

    "When creating a Fireteam: Core that includes Wildcard troopers, you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a trooper who counts as one of those units."

    I haven't included any Wildcards. How does this one work @HellLois?
     
    #3 Triumph, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    While I agree in what you say, the difference is between One can join fireteam X and special fireteam X+Y
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Personally I have no horse in this race I don't play MO I just want to make a point that this part of the FAQ definitely needs more attention and another pass over to tighten things up.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No. As the FAQ says, "you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a trooper who counts as one of those units.". You appear to be reading it as 'you must include at least one trooper mentioned anywhere in the row'.

    There is no Fireteam for Order Sergeants that lists a Father-Knight.

    Compare it to:
    The Frontovik is listed in the Fireteam.
     
    xagroth and Robock like this.
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Essentially we have two different types of fireteams "pure" fireteams all from the same type and special fireteams listed as X+Y (+Z ectr)

    And 4 types of fireteam members "normal members", troops named the same as the fireteam, or listed in the special fireteam, count as models were they count as another model that can join a fireteam as a "normal member", wildecards and can join, the two later behave in the same way more or less, but, they need to join a fireteam and to do so a normal member needs to be present for the fireteam to exist.
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah see that's the problem. That's not explicitly clear from what's written. There's no hard definition of what counts for being listed. If I just read the FAQ and apply my knowledge of the english language I could come to either conclusion.

    The fireteam formatting and language needs a do over for the purpose of clarity and should all be done in a standard format. There's also the point that I raised about the 4 man core with no wildcards that falls into the cracks.
     
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Check this post, it's all very well explained there, but in a nutshell, for cores:
    • "Count as" = same model, it count toward the Core requirement
    • "Can join" / "Can be part of" = can sustitute any model of the Core, it doesn't count toward the Core requirement
    • Normal core from 2 to 5 models
    • Special Core, check requisites of number of models (for example, Crusade fireteam must be 5)
    That's all.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's great, but that's the thing that needs to be explained in an official document or at least the wiki, not a forum post. If the rules aren't clear they need to be rewritten so they are. The goal of CB's regular errata initiative is so we can reduce the amount of diving into myriads of forum threads/arguments to figure out how the game is supposed to be played, it didn't quite manage to achieve this with this part of the update.
     
    #10 Triumph, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  11. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The forum does a good job clearing it up, but in the wiki you also have the right info:
    • Units listed: Models from the unit or the unit listed in the case of special fireteams
    • Trooper who counts as: "count as"
    The info is there. If is not listed nor have the "count as" wording, then it doesn't count for the Fireteam:Core requisite.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    As I've said previously that isn't clear because what counts as being "a unit listed" isn't defined. Father Knights appear in the table chart for Order Sergeant links. There is no definition as to whether or not this counts as being listed, and if you simply apply reading comprehension that could indeed mean they're being listed. It's not unless you go and look it up on the forums that we can find a definition, and that's what we're trying to avoid here.
     
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  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    One advice @Triumph; if you want to discuss about if a rule is clear or not from a RAW point of view, it's better if you are clear on that from the start. I totally thought you were a player that didn't know how this work, so I explained you how it works; next time go straight to the point!


    So going RAW:
    It would be better if there were formal definitions of everything, and we also have the "false Wilcards" problems; which are the models with the same wording than Wilcards but without the "keyword" wilcard.

    So from a strictly RAW point of view:
    The bolded part is the condition, so if you didn't include any "true" wilcard (like the one in your second post), then technically would be legal.
    The "one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart", the "false Wildcards" are also listed in the same row and aren't wilcards; so if the player doesn't know how this is supossed to work, it could be missleading.

    So yes, this part may be missleading and needs some changes.


    Possible changes to make it clear without adding too much verbose:
    • Include the word Wilcard in the specific wilcards; even if it has some changes for example "Specific Wildcard"
    • Change the condition of the rule to include them: "When creating a Fireteam: Core that includes Wildcard and Specific Wildcard troopers,
    • Change the effect part to exclude them: you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart that is not an Specific Wilcard, or a trooper who counts as one of those units.
    Or adding just Wilcard to "false wildcards":
    And also adding 1 or 2 examples with some verbose would help a lot.