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Fireteam Core Options In Military Orders

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Fusiliers:

    [​IMG] Military Orders

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 18)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    [​IMG] FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    [​IMG] BIPANDRA Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)

    [​IMG]

    With the limitation of only Availability 3 in Military Orders the Fusilier Fireteam Core is in a very interesting “place”. Where Spec Ops are available it becomes the excellent option for a long range fire support and general combat unit that it is in NCA (thanks to the potential for 5 members between Bipandra and the Spec Ops), but without this option there are much more limited possibilities.

    Despite that their low cost, with stats suited to long range engagement and all the options to back that up (and little else clogging up your choices) Fusiliers can still be a good defensive Fireteam in MO. However they can often be even more useful as cheap Specialists, supplementing and supporting the dangerous but effective Knights.

    One of the beauties of the Fusilier Fireteam is their access to a full array of the longer range SWC weapon options. With HMGs for the active turn (and at the low SWC of only 1), Missile Launchers for the reactive and Multi-Snipers as a great compromise between the two, you have every long range option covered. In close things aren’t so great, with only Bipandra offering a Light Shotgun… but at least your basic weapon is a Combi Rifle so enemies with 8” don’t have too much bonus advantage. As you may well want to use the Fireteam to deliver your Specialists when using Fusiliers in MO the Light Grenade Launcher becomes a better option, but there is also an argument for either going ARO nest or simply going SWC-free (well, as near as you can get with Bipandra costing SWC for no reason) and using the Specialists after the Knights have done their work.

    Well, we have the whole crew here. Hacker? Check. Forward Observer? Check. Paramedic? Check. Nothing too fancy, but you can cover all but the Engineering Classified Missions out of your Fusilier pool alone. The big downside to all this is WP 12, but the low, low price and devastating combat strength of the Knights can make that less of an issue by clearing the way for you. Don’t forget about Sixth Sense, especially with your Hacker, as the ability to delay that ARO is even more important here (as is the ability to ignore Stealth) and this ability makes pulling Bipandra (and her Doctor ability) into your little specialist link.

    From a special abilities perspective one of the draws to Fusiliers from a MO perspective is the cheap Lt. Putting this Lt into a Fireteam with Sixth Sense (and a Shotgun ARO to keep the enemy honest) can help keep them alive as well. Otherwise it’s the very lack of special features which makes Fusiliers attractive, giving them a low cost to fill out otherwise expensive lists.

    So, as an ARO nest, Specialist support group or defensive huddle around a cheap Lt, there is plenty to recommend the Fusilier Fireteam as a Core option in MO. Especially for those forces which aren’t quite investing in the massive bulk of 5 HI.


    Order Sergeants:

    [​IMG] Military Orders

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)

    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)

    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)

    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    [​IMG] BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)

    [​IMG]

    The Order Sergeants are a great example of a Fireteam Core option which lives in the shadow of other options which are more commonly examined and thus better understood. They are also a unit where the impact of the HSN3 changes hasn’t yet been fully grasped by many and their potential isn’t being realised by most players.

    The weapon loadouts available to the Order Sergeants (even totally ignoring the Specialist Sergeant options and focusing only on those which can join the Fireteam as we will here) are very interesting, especially for PanOceania. For a start the value of Religious is significantly increased on an ARO piece like the Multi Sniper Rifle and as performance in that role is greatly enhanced by membership in a Fireteam this alone makes for a great option. The Spitfire was often overlooked as an option in a force brimming with great platforms for this very weapon, but at low SWC and high impact with the full link this is another great option to have on the table. Things really get interesting with the Heavy Rocket Launcher option, a unique selection for a PanOceania Fireteam and a fantastic ARO piece and active turn killer which also brings the close range firepower of the Assault Pistol. Last but not least Brother Konstantinos provides the anti-material capability of D-Charges, and also adds MSV2 capability to the link making it even more dangerous to a wider range of enemy units, as well as another Assault Pistol platform.

    Previously the only way to get any mission completion capability into the Fireteam was with the addition of Brother Konstantinos, but with HSN3 that is no longer the case. Even the basic Paramedic option which has been provided gives additional options for Classified Missions and provides backup to Konstantinos and further incentive to use the Fireteam in a more aggressive fashion, pushing up to engage the enemy and achieve the mission parameters.

    One frustration with the Order Sergeants is that there are limited options to leverage one of their greatest strengths, their higher WP, with the exception of mission objectives. Nevertheless this and their status as Religious troops and above-average CC (especially for PanOceania) can both be useful when kept in mind and used, with the former offering some utility for their WP. However these elements do increase the cost of the Order Sergeants over comparable options (Fusiliers and Acontecimento Regulars) for only situational benefit. Furthermore they appear to pay in points for a Skill (Religious) which is usually free, only adding to the frustration at their increased cost.

    Generally speaking the Order Sergeants are a great and inexpensive Fireteam option. Although they suffer somewhat by comparison to their PanOceanian equivalents in other Sectorials this really speaks to the high value of Fusiliers and Regulars rather than being a negative comment on the Sergeants. They offer a unique set of weapon options (especially the very well regarded Heavy Missile Launcher) and some specialist support, making them far more effective on the table than many have yet realised.

    Hospitaller Knights:

    [​IMG] Military Orders

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 33)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 41)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 49)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 50)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 51)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (2 | 53)

    [​IMG] DE FERSEN Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 58)

    [​IMG]

    The Death Star, the Orbital Ion Cannon, Half-Brick in a Sock or Lucille to the Head… the Holy Order of Hospitaller Knights of Saint John of Skovorodino along with Father-Officer Gabriele De Fersen and Joan of Arc (in either of her manifestations) is one of the most discussed Fireteam Core options in all of Infinity. It’s also one of the most complex options available to PanOceania. I’ll begin by pointing everyone to the recent clarification in the Wiki here: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/List_of_Fireteams#Special_2 which confirms the change making De Fersen count as a Hospitaller Knight for all purposes regarding Fireteam composition. This allows him to be included alongside Joan in a Fireteam of any number of Hospitaller Knights. One key thing to keep in mind regarding this Fireteam is that the Availability of Knights of Order in the Military Orders list is only 4, so to get a full 5-man Fireteam onto the table at all you need to include either Joan or De Fersen and while there are arguments in favour of considering 3 or 4 trooper Core HI options I’ll be assuming here that this is exactly what you’ll be doing.

    Mostly close range, the Hopsitaller Knight Fireteam Core does get some longer range punch from their HMG option. This could be supplemented (or, replaced) by the Spitfire on either Joan v2 or De Fersen, but with no other weapons with ranges beyond 24” this feels like a risky choice against a prepared opponent. One key consideration will be the choice between Multi-Rifles and Combi-Rifles, especially on the doctor but also in general. Given the prevalence of Dogged and NWI units in many popular lists I would always push to include at least one Multi-Rifle, although this may often be in the hands of Joan v1 (and thus they can be skipped for the Hospitallers). The option for a cheaper Boarding Shotgun overshows the Combi Rifle (at the same points cost) thanks to the inclusion of a DA weapon on the BS profile (which only adds further to utility) and a gap otherwise in CQB options. The other CQB tool on offer is the Nanopulsar, which only comes on Joan (although thankfully on both versions) and should never be overlooked as an option, especially for ARO work. With CC21, MA 2 and either AP or DA CCWs the Hospitaller Knights are no close combat slouches, but De Fersen with his AP+Shock Templar weapon and Joan are likely to be your point fighters, especially if you run Joan v2 without using her as your Lt and pick up the Explosive CCW.

    Father-Officer Gabriele De Fersen and the Knight Hospitaller Doctor (with either Combi or Multi Rifle) provide your Specialist support. Although the drop in HSN3 from a Hacking Device to an upgraded Assault Hacking Device hurt De Fersen in terms of overall utility, he still covers the full range of Hacking or Targeting Classified Objectives and a Fireteam running both of these needs only an Engineer for full Classified coverage in the list. One minor note on the Doctor armament choice, don’t overlook the DA CCW on the Combi Rifle option, which thus retains anti-material capability.

    One of the only BS 17 HMGs in the game, or even a BS 18 Spitfire (before range bonus) probably counts as a strong “unique feature”. But the biggest thing which needs to be considered here is cost, which is massive (at least 193pts if a Doctor and HMG are included and 219pts or more for a full package of weapons and both characters). Nevertheless a HI Fireteam with Stealth, inbuilt Doctor support, inbuilt Hacking Support and strong combat choices from CC out to 32” (and even further, with the link bonus making up for range penalty and BS14 still offering a dangerous threat… especially at B5) makes the Fireteam a beast to stop.

    Is the juice worth the squeeze? That points cost is a killer, and 4SWC for both heavy weapons can hurt too (but that, at least, Joan can mitigate as Lt). In missions which demand some objective interaction but retain a focus on engaging and destroying the enemy the answer is most certainly yes. But so many points tied up in so little (even ‘though you can easily provide the remaining specialist and order support for a 10-12 order force) is costly in many scenarios, and especially against opponents and armies which focus on evasion over engagement. The king of the pain trains is an option worth considering, but I’d always want a second list up my sleeve.


    Knights of Santiago:


    [​IMG] Military Orders

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1.5 | 44)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 44)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39)

    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 41)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 49)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 50)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 51)

    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (2 | 53)

    [​IMG]

    Previously the specialist-less wallflower to the Hospitaller belle HSN3 has made something much more impressive out of the Sacred Military Order of Knights of Santiago as a Fireteam Core option for the PanOceania Military Orders. The addition of even their single, second rate, specialist option and an interesting package of weapons and skills makes for an intriguing choice and closer competition than many have yet realised.

    Sporting a Nanopulser and E/M Grenades on every profile, the Santiago Fireteam is always going to be a deadly threat in ARO at short range. The potential double Direct Fire Template and the HI/TAG/Rambo terminating capability of E/M will give any opponent pause at approaching this Fireteam close. Only the Spitfire does limit the heavy weapon options, with no long range potential but Boarding Shotguns and Combi Rifles keep costs down for closer engagement. Joan, as usual, offers Multi-Rifle or Spitfire choices as well as supplementing the existing DA and AP CCW options, which with MA1 and CC21 leaves the Santiagos tough (if not amazing) in CC.

    Paramedic. That is all. But, to be blunt, it’s enough. It’s especially enough when you keep in mind that HI are one of the few targets it’s actually worth pointing a Paramedic (or a Medkit for that matter) at, and at WP13 they’re no slouches by PanO standards. Of course you’ll need other specialist options to back the Fireteam up, but that’s to be expected and Military Orders do have access to cheap specialists (thanks to Fusiliers, Pathfinders and the good old Support Pack team).

    Their Martial Arts and Kinematica aren’t really anything to write home about, ‘though both are certainly nice to have available. Zero G doesn’t tend to appear often (especially on Tournament tables) but is fluffy as all get-out and is brilliant when it is relevant. The key piece and star here is the 360 Visor, which isn’t an ideal fit with 4-5 trooper Fireteams (as Sixth Sense lvl 2 gives a lot of overlap), but does add a touch of utility.

    In a Fireteam Core alone or with Joan the Knights of Santiago do suffer somewhat in the comparison to Hosptialler Knights. Their higher cost and less effective options (HMG vs Spitfire, Doctor vs Paramedic) do seem to leave them lacking. The value of E/M Grenades as rampage stoppers, spec fire options and generic Isolation and template fun shouldn’t be underestimated however and the Nanopulser on every trooper is another great advantage if leveraged well. With their updates I feel that this is a Fireteam we may actually get to see on the table, even if the “Death Star” retain their primadonna status.


    Special Core - Magister Knights:

    [​IMG] Military Orders

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)

    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)

    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)

    [​IMG]

    Ok, now for the complicated but fun part. To start us off everyone should read the recent clarification in the Wiki here: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/List_of_Fireteams#Special_2 which confirms the change making De Fersen count as a Hospitaller Knight for all purposes regarding Fireteam composition. This allows him to be included alongside a Hospitaller Knight in the Special Core Fireteam of Magisters, or lead a group of them himself. The real choice here is between the Hospitallers and the Santiagos, as the Magisters can’t form a Fireteam Core on their own, but only when lead by 1-2 Hospitallers or Santiagos. Unfortunately this doesn’t allow for Joan to come along for the ride, but that still leaves a wealth of decisions and potential team builds.

    Apart from the options your leaders are bringing (and you should refer back to the Fireteam Core writeup on the Hospitaller and Santiago link for that discussion) the Magisters themselves come to the table with some interesting weapon packages. The Missile Launcher is particularly interesting as it offers a long range fire support option which the PanOceania HI Fireteam Core links otherwise lack. This option provides the interesting possibility of creating a long range ARO nest supported by a Doctor (Hospitaller) or Paramedic (Santiago) leader and two cheap “cheerleaders”. The other Magisters are armed the same with Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun (great for ARO fire at both long and short range) and a choice of either AP or DA CCW to complement their MA2 and CC22 (for deadly close combat).

    For specialists the link has whatever the Hospitaller or Santiago leaders bring with them, but that’s actually a pretty good deal these days with De Fersen and a Doctor (Combi or Multi both worthwhile options when it’ll be one of only two solid guns) on the Hospital side. The Santiagos aren’t so strong, but their Paramedic brings all their advantages (E/M Grenades and Nanopulsar) which stand out all the more when Joan is out of the equation.

    Hyper-Dynamics lvl 1 is probably more important when the Magisters run loose on their own, but it makes them even more dangerous in close (thanks to Engage AROs on 17s) and as Religious Troops those Missile Launcher AROs aren’t going to duck into cover ‘till they are dead. Don’t forget that you still have the Hospitaller or Santiago(s) along for the ride here, as all their special abilities are going to be in the mix (though in some cases the fact that only 1-2 troopers have them is more limiting).

    Putting a 5-trooper HI link onto the table for a vastly discounted points value makes this the Knight link you are most likely to see on the table (or run yourself). It isn’t as durable as the Hospitaller or Santiago based Fireteam Core, but it can be very close with much better support. The tossup between the Hospitallers and the Santiagos is very close here and there are arguments both ways, but I think the real winner is going to be De Fersen + Multi Doctor + Magisters. That’s a LOT of bang for your buck, and a damn good specialist team to boot.
     
    #1 AdmiralJCJF, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  2. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    What you miss with Santiagos is that they aren't slowed or stop in Rescue since Zero-G is a terrain skill. I was considering to play them in one of my lists for the Merovingian Satellite due to this particularity.
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea, must those Santiagos must be linked otherwise they will probably became impetues and won't be allowed to link with civilans.
     
  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    That's why they have FT: Duo ;-)
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Their E/M grenades won't send them frenzied either IIRC.
     
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    That's a good point, but applies to more than just Rescue (well, in theory).

    Another good thing to keep in mind, they do have a lot of "soft" advantages... but it's the hard edge of the Hospital which keeps them in the lead.
     
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  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The problem is that we don't have a burty long range weapon on our HIs except for the Order of the Hospital. The Magister ML is a thing but when you're facing a fusilier ML in FT or a Moira Sniper in FT, you're quite screwed if you didn't choose the Hospitaller HMG in FT.
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    I hate to be that guy again.... nah I lied, as usual I am happy do play devil's advocate - OS Links are still terrible.

    - uninspired and overpriced baseline Profile
    - all interesting options are Specialist Sergeants (and thus unlinkable)
    - Konstantinos is a pretty sorry excuse for a saving grace

    Interesting LI Link usually have fulfill several of the following criteria

    - Cheap fillers (Chainrifle + LSG Volunteer, Kuang Shi ... ).
    - Great Linkable Specialists (every non PanO Dire Foe, Kempetai, CG FO with BSG...).
    - High utility (Smoke, DTWs, (deployable)Repeaters, Sensor, ...).
    - Strong mixed piece (CG+Crane, Volunteers+Grey).

    OS have

    - Friggin 13 points cost for the cheapest dude.
    - A 15 point Paramedic with no further utility and a Specialist Operative because who needs to do Classifieds.
    - Several flavours of guns, HRL is pretty unique for LI, lack of ML or HMG hurts though.
    Also wouldn't count a MSV2 Combi and D-Charges on top of guns high utility.
    - A undergunned Nisse with subpar stats.

    With low AVA of Remotes, Fusiliers are often used to generate Orders in MO. Without CoC and Joan being a superior, but obvious and expensive choice, one of the humble Fusiliers is more often than not your LT. Putting all of your Fusiliers in a Link makes it more attractive to target them. Unless you want to take Bipandra the Fusiliers won't have access to SSL2 which is vital to make them decent at ARO duty with a ML or MSR. Overall your core slot is much better spent elsewhere, the Fusilier Core is something that comes up to gain additional mobility in turn 2 or 3 instead of during list building.

    The full 5 man Hospitaler and Santiago Links are also fairly terrible. At times they perform well, but they're extremely inconsistent. With 200 points invested in your Core Link you're pretty much forced to run a 10 Order list. 2/3s of that list will be in a 16 inch bubble and a easy target to focus on. The remaining third of your list will be stressed to defend the DZ, cover grabbing secondary objectives and back up the Link. The defensive value of a 40 point HI is also pretty terrible when someone starts shooting with something more deadly than a Combi Rifle.
    However running a 3 HI "Haris"-Core to have enough points for Orders and support troops is undervalued.

    So the Holy Grail of MO's Core Links is the mixed Magister Core. The obvious choice here is the 3x Magister + Hospitaler MR Doc + Hospitaler HMG, a timeless classic as mentioned.
    Depending on Missions other setups might be better. For instance 3 Magisters + 2 Santiago Spitfires is a pretty impressive setup for Hunting Party. A full 5 man Link with ML + TO MSR OS to layer AROs + a backup Magister to reform the Link is a massive roadblock for missions where defending is important.
    This Link is carried on the back of the Magisters. Whether it is their impressive ARO potential unter close to all circumstances combined with the statline of a full blown HI, their CC potential or their Order Efficiency with Impetuos shenanigans + Command Tokens. Obviously a BS17 HMG/Spitfire is the closest thing MO has to Smoke. There aren't many troops able to scare a fully linked PanO HI with a SWC weapon away from the path you want to take.
    Overall I've found the Magister Link easy to use, but hard to master. It outperforms the other choices by a mile and then some, but you have to be very creative. Using a expendable warm body as a makeshift Smoke, Stealth Shenanigans, spending a couple Orders to get a unopposed Panzerfaust shot, bouncing LSG templates off unconscious troops to reveal Camo and clear Mines... the list goes on.

    Whenever I miss Krakots in MO I fondly remember MO gets them tuned up to 11 in a Link.
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I think that the Order Sergeant link has value and utility... in Military Orders.

    It's correct to negatively compare it to other LI fireteams, but you can't get other LI fireteams (barring the highly restricted Fusilier option) in Military Orders.

    There are plenty of list options which don't lean on the Knight fireteam options, and I think that the Order Sergeant link is valid and valuable as a support option for those.
     
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  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I have another discussion of Haris and Duo options in PanOceania planned.

    Watch this space!
     
  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think there is only one need of this HIs FT: keep our knights cold. Because we could easily go without this link if there wasn't any Frenzy around. PanO has the strengh to give HIs that can fight alone against TAGs and FTs. That's one of our strong part. Yes, the Magister+Hospitaller FT is the one used every time because it is the one we can trust every time and has all you need in. But I think we can work away of this link if we dare. As I am preparing the Merovigian Satellite, I can't play anything but my two MO lists prepared for it and they are all containing this FT, just by comfort as I never played MO before, but I think there is really something to do with the rest. Except maybe Teutons and Combi KotHS but even here, I think I will be able to find some pretty neat uses by the time.

    I'm no longer listening the ones that still complain about how bad PanO is designed as I have played everything in NCA against some of the top of the players in my country and never felt stolen about any troop once I had understand the power and the weakness of each and played it properly. I'm surely not the best NCA player but I've tried everything again and again and I'm not longer saying that PanO is boring. When a player that is older in the game than you says :"You can really do this in PanO?" that means for me that our faction isn't that boring.

    I hear everybody saying how worthless is CC. Heck! I've never fought so much in CC since I'm playing MO units. This possibility is just so good!
    Knights links destroy any destroyable part of scenery in CC in just one order and this give you so much fast moving and your opponent is just not expecting it! Antimaterial weapons are just great for this. A corner of a building is a booby trap? Just make a hole in the wall, blow up the doors and the windows and take them in the back or exposed. And PanO is surely the only faction that has so much weapons to blow up the whole table.

    I would just like that the Seraph would have the same rework as the Anadonda: give it a second profile with HMG and Hospitallers won't be the all go FT anymore.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    While I disagree it's nice to see a different PoV. "Boring" and "fun" are subjective, after all.

    As for the teams themselves - Hospitaller team is the go-to for many because of the ability to get HMG and doc in a single link, while Magisters help to keep the price tag down. But I think Santiago team built around Spitfire is equally viable. This team can push forward and then split, while OS take up a defensive link duty.

    As for OS themselves - they're a very good team. Restricted in options, yes (I'd love to see some of the Specialist Sergeants - hacker, MSV2 - get linked), but perfectly workable. Religious means that if they'll surve enemy fire - which isn't that rare - they won't dive for cover no matter what, making them a stable defensive fireteam.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Those rules are optional and not normally used unless you agree with your opponent.

    They had removed last mission while you could get "movement" advantage if having anti-material weapons (which was objective room missions). Please do check rules before such comments. Normal missions do not allow you you attack scenery (barring objectives).


    NCA is crazy good, but if you check it's list they are almost always same (Fusi link + Fugazi). I would love to see bolts core 5 man link used effectiviley in competetive enviroment.
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea, problems starts if enemy has a MSR in 5 man link team outside of 24". Li 5 man link with ML, or dreaded Moira/Rriot Girl is even less funn (or casual Sin-Eater).

    A Q-Drone also will make you sweat...

    You better pray that your TO MSR won't eat a crit otherwise you are kinda in deep trouble....
     
  15. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Well, then we're back to Infinity basics:

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh yea, but you know that some tables can get pretty open, there is always "reserve" drop ?

    Tbh when I was on Interplanterary I was shocked how open the tables were (played 2 times on tables which had a frikking huge tower in DZ which allowed and overwatch of 75% of the map ^^)
     
  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    There's one problem I have with this line of thinking.

    I mean, first thing first: I understand implications of rules being official and that there's probably a reason CB designers removed anti-materiel-friendly elements from the table. But at the same time there's chance it was simply because they have a long queue of army updates and deemed that game's current state is not prepared for extensive use of rules that are currently optional. And not because it's definitely better for the game no matter what.

    So, the aforementioned problem of mine is that people tend to stick to "default" ruleset while pointing out how those extra rules change viability of different units, even though "vanilla ITS" ruleset is also hardly unbiased, and it's not a given which way it would be really worse for the game in general.

    I do agree that scenery destruction rules themselves are likely not in their best shape and some already underdog sectorials will struggle in such environment even more, but like I said already that's probably one of the possible reasons CB decided they would take a backseat this season.
     
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It's the same reason I would not be using "jungle" terrain while playing ASA (or Aquantic and hope-soon-be-here Varuna).

    It's a bit too much biased against my opponent.


    My problem is that I've actually thought for a second (there was even thread on old forums) that would be kinda cool for MO/PanO to have some "movment" tool (other than always good and optimal smoke) which would:

    a) not be a smoke
    b) reflect some of PanO approach (screw this door/wall and several guys behind it)

    So blasting through walls/doors would be really good (as hard to actually play depending on scenery used), but it is not the "default" game mode and technicly there's little you can do to include it in ITS.


    It would also probably introduce some balance issues. Srsly rooting out MO link team from Objective room AFTER the doors were destroyed is really really hard (as actually destroying the doors from opponent side forced him to waste more order entering the Objective room and prohibited him from using a smoke/doorway to shoot inside. Bonus points if you sticked Magister just behind destroyed doors, to always be able to engage enemy ^^).
     
  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I don't understand the last paragraph. As the doors are accesses, destroying them just means you remove the doors. It is not like putting a wall in the destroyed state.
    And I'm not for the possibility to destroy objectives. I'm for the possibility to use all the Scenery rules part of N3 to walk around a table that gives you this possibility. It is not as if you could draw LoF in destroyed walls (that would be at little bit too strong as a ML link team could kill everybody without moving from the DZ) and some wall profiles are as harder to put in destroyed state than a Jotum. You don't destroy something like that, it spends orders and have consequences.

    NB: a good table could provide some areas with a specific terrain rule but I think that putting all the table with a specific terrain rule is just unfair towards some factions/sectorials.

    PS: I'm actually promoting the use of both terrain and scenery rules to make each game spicier and I have to admit that I see some nice moves happening with them and it is refreshing.
     
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  20. Doa

    Doa Well-Known Member

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    Do someone run list with a couple of duoor a list with one duo and a core made by only 3 pieces?
    What do you think about threm?
     
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