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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    So Bostria let slip on Late night wargaming that mixed fireteams might get different rules to non mixed fireteams sometime soon-ish* in the future.

    Time for RAMPANT SPECULATION!!!!

    What do we think the changes might be?
     
  2. SpectralOwl

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    Mixed fireteams get A PONY!

    More seriously, I'd expect less-potent shooting buffs since cheap MSV ARO units dominate to the point of tedium right now. Or maybe matched teams won't cost Command Tokens, that could be fun.
     
  3. Achelon

    Achelon Well-Known Member

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    I think the same as @SpectralOwl , probably reduced power when shooting.
     
  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I feel like some extra coherency bonus for all being the same troop type (not a mixed link) is an interesting idea at least. Like yeah, no command token to form re-form, or maybe different members can declare different AROs without breaking.

    Personally I think vanilla is on balance more powerful than Sectorial right now - so I'd welcome a streamlining but not an overall nerf.
     
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  5. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Absolutely, any significant nerf along the lines that people here and on FB sometimes propose (taking away +3, etc) might kill sectorials in serious play for good unless accompanied with massive rework of AVA and exclusive profiles (which CB wont do unless case-by-case in army revamp like MO). An additional bonus for pure fireteams might work as a tradeoff, although should be quite significant.
     
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  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    as much as I hate a lot of the current bonuses they would be fine for pure teams, noone gives a shit if a trashy grunt or moderator sniper picks up +3 BS +1burst and (as much as I hate to say it) sixth sense, or if you need to fork out around 200 points to get it on an orc or riot grrl, (Though the Dakini will forever be an issue).

    But stripping them off of things like wildcard Grenzers, Bolts, Kamau, Vostok, and any other problematic apex Shooter is fine, and a much needed change.

    Though I would like to see what constitutes pure over mixed. Does pure include units that are counts as? as they are for all intents and purposes a member of that unit profile for FT comp. Or is it you HAVE to be from this one entry no questions asked? With some tweaking to what are counts as units I would prefer the former as it will allow for the buffing of less useful units in a way that means they will not be competing with another essentially strictly better piece.
     
  7. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    yes no one gives a shit about a linked moderator - thats why no one would willingly play them and cut off access to vanilla synergies

    it would simply make sectorials unplayable in current arms race and make a lot of model line (most HIs for starters) shelf warmers - I dont think CB would like to invalidate a lot of models in production that are still selling

    Bostria saying on that stream that only Aleph and Haqq are competetive vanillas was just an insane alien take - after that I honestly dont know if I can trust CB with doing any sweeping changes
     
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  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think the SS bonus may be stripped from the mixed fireteams and replaced by something else. Those super snipers would be at least sensible to smoke/WN tricks and surprise attacks. On the other hand, I can see SS being still there for pure FT as SP absolutely needs it to stay safe in reactive.
    There could be a bonus in LoL for pure FT too. Like, they can use their irregular orders as if they were regulars, while a mixed one can't.
     
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  9. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking exactly along those lines. Making linked uber ARO MSV pieces susceptible to Surprise would at least open new avenues, and making SS available to "pure" linkteams also makes sense (they are all trained together, trust each other with info, etc).

    It is a simple change, that would still allow the bonuses to offset the perils of linking 4 or 5 guys. One could also think that the +3 Bonus does not apply to mixed fireteams, or that it is simple a +1; but at that point a linked Alguacil gaining +3 BS would be on par to a Mobile Brigada gaining a +1, I don´t think that is right.
     
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  10. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    I mean personally I'd rather they just take Sixth Sense away from fireteams completely and replace it with something else.

    Fireteam bonuses are there to simulate the other members helping spot or adding their own firepower into the attack; no amount of teamwork should help you shoot backwards through a smoke cloud with 0 penalty. It also more-or-less upgrades MSV1 units to have essentially MSV2 (unless you dodge), which makes certain units like Riot Grrls even more oppressive.
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Denying Sectorials the opportunity to defend themselves with the current level of potent ARO piece is wild.

    While the Powercreep that lead to N3 Linked Kamau Snipers in Fusiliers should have never happened to begin with, you're going to fuck up the viability of >80% of competetive Sectorials if you start directly nerfing their standout defensive tool.
    In a world where Vanilla Factions are happily near and in the top spots, that's an unfortunate necessity for Sectorials to keep playing.

    What I'd really like to see is incentives to run Fireteams composed entirely of native Troops (with "counts as" allowed, to get the N3 2 troop Fireteam back on the table).
    Wildcards and RPG Links are a mistake that's here to stay, so I'd prefer a reward for not going cookiecutter over a punishment for taking the obvious choice.
     
    #11 Teslarod, Aug 19, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
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  12. SpectralOwl

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    80% of Sectorials are already non-competitive thanks to missing out on the N4 release power creep, I'd rather get some semblance of internal balance back than worry about MRRF or Bakunin's one-trick armies sticking around.
     
  13. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    If grenzer are meant to suck in mixed link team, then they should have given them core link instead of spreading them 1 grenzer model per SWC boxes (securitate, cheerkiller, more to come?).
     
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  14. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I agree with swapping SS for something else, but for simplicity, I'd apply it to all fireteams, not just mixed fireteam.

    i'm not sure what I'd apply to only pure teams vs mixed teams. Perhaps Number 2 (ie. the TeamPro supportware in N3) or the ability to be formed without a command token.

    Also no clue what minor inconvenience to give to mixed fireteam that would not over-complicate the game rules.

    We do think of moderator link, but some players are using more expensive pure teams too which we would not want to be made too powerful. In-sectorial Pts are the same as in-vanilla Pts. If they are appropriately pointed in vanilla, then too much bonus to pure-fireteam would beef them up.
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    LMAO

    Not sure if serious or 4D chess trolling on his part
     
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  16. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    My money is on models with Wildcard not counting towards the unit size when determining the link bonus. Counts as, and "may join" still work, just wildcard specifically doesn't.
     
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  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    That's pretty simple and elegant. Could also see something in the vein of "Wildcards do not benefit from Fireteam bonuses". Maybe they can help with the size, but then they themselves don't get the bonuses. Looking at you, Karhu and Kamau...
     
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  18. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    The Duo bonus is : "During the Active Turn, the two Troopers activate with a single Regular Order." you need wildcard to at least benefit from that bonus. You could remove the 3 4 and 5 member bonus. But not as elegant as simply not counting toward the size.

    If it was not counting toward the size, then Duo made up of 1 pure + 1 wildcard would count as being 1-member and be impossible. It would remove the insane special fireteam Duo with a wildcard that sub-in that creeped in N3/N4. (looking at you my azra'il+rafiq FTO. or Wolfgang joining a solo-ABH to form a duo team. but miranda is ok, she doesn't count as a ABH since she's already Wildcard, but she should count as ABH in addition to being wildcard. In fact, no matter the tweak they want to do, it must include declaring Miranda to count-as ABH)

    A haris including a wildcard would count as 2-member ... not only the wildcard lose +1B but everyone in the haris does... yeah, not great. I'd rather have you suggestion of the "wildcard don't benefit from any fireteam bonus other than the 2-member bonus."
     
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  19. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was going to say something along those lines too. e.g. fireteam 'size' for the purpose of bonuses is the number of troopers of the named type in that team. So a CORE of Zhanshi would only get a bonus corresponding to the number of Zhanshi in the team.
    This would likely need to be fudged a bit for DUOs, or else there'd be no way to form a mixed duo.
    Edit:, also what @Robock said about Haris.
     
  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    You need 4 of the same Troop type in the fireteam to get Sixth Sense might be interesting. Harsh for Steel Phalanx though, maybe SP fireteams are the exception.

    Also my take of Bostria saying Aleph and Haqq are the 'only real vanilla armies' was more that was his vibe of their style, rather than a specific comment on power level. Could be wrong.
     
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