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Feeling Outclassed by Power Creep

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by fenren, Nov 2, 2018.

?

Is Yu Jing Currently Under-powered ?

Poll closed Nov 12, 2018.
  1. Yeah, it's rough out there for a dragon...

    21 vote(s)
    23.9%
  2. No way, Yu Jing is full of great troops!

    67 vote(s)
    76.1%
  1. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    I used to feel like I had a dice-rolls chance at winning when I played tightly against most opponents.

    However, since the loss of troops in Uprising and the distinct power creep of new releases, I'm having a really hard time not feeling like our units are being outclassed. I have been seeing more and more new troops, new skills, and new technology that are better costed or stronger than what Yu Jing has to offer. Even our durable HI and HI links are no longer something that feels uniquely Yu Jing. I can always play tight and hope I roll really well, but it's getting a little frustrating looking across the table at troopers that are unit-per-unit better costed or equipped.

    There was hope that the Invincible Army would change this, but so far I haven't seen troop profiles at costs that says that will be the case. With the power creep and tech creep from min-max'd profiles in recent releases, Tunguska's etc, it feels like Yu Jing just isn't keeping up and is slowly becoming a choice to play an inferior force.

    Recently on MayaCast Tom mentioned that among the 64 players at the Arizona Armageddon event ZERO players chose to field Yu Jing or ISS forces. That's not good guys!

    Change my mind? Tell me that there's still plenty we don't know about IA! Help me build Aleph and Nomad models...
     
  2. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

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    Full disclosure time, I'm going to a tournament tomorrow and I'm taking JSA. I'm not really going to sound convincing when I say that Yu Jing are still good but shortly after uprising I took vanilla Yu Jing to a small event using quite oddball lists and won all my games. Made some mistakes due to misunderstandings (too used to MO being filled with HI) but every game was good with some back and forth but ultimately resulting in Yu Jing victory.

    Until about a month ago I've been playing nothing but Yu Jing and they've been perfectly competitive for my local meta, which has aliens, aleph, nomads and ariadna as staple opponents. Playing Yu Jing as something to prove has been somewhat draining, hence a short sabbatical to use the rest of my collection.

    I have played some test games trying HI links in preparation for IA. They are good and tinbot B in a link makes them remarkably resilient to enemy hacking. (Put fairy dust up and even an interventor is going to struggle to hack anything.) It almost doesn't matter what else IA offers so long as we get a couple of hacking options and the chance to include a repeater or two inside links. The Liu xing and Zencha disappoint me but a full core of HI with perhaps a haris as well are simply amazingly solid and difficult to shift.

    I can't really deny the accusation of min-maxed profiles becoming more common, it pisses me off to see cheap profiles with excellent abilities because of some discount weapon of skill (like an SMG or frenzy) but there's also been very little to have shifted the game from one type of list/faction to another. Yu Jing doesn't feel week to me, tools like madtraps in particular still stand out as a relatively new tool that changes how my games have played out. A glued Achilles is a wonderful sight to see and in that respect the mad trap is a much more potent piece than it's relative the crazy koala.

    The faction doesn't stand out for anything particular anymore and whilst that rankles and irritates my sensibilities my overall game and enjoyment hasn't been hit by it.
     
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  3. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    @REND Good feedback. I can only see things from inside my personal bubble and meta, so input from others is helpful. I'm about 2 years into playing ISS and Vanilla and feeling a bit outgunned of late, here's to hoping IA reinvigorates my confidence in Yu Jing!
     
  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    I think in general, it is more down to simply a combination of a lack of variety and poor internal balance (which only feeds the former more).

    JSA had some competitive units in it that clamoured for list space, and now those holes are empty. With the Keisotsu gone, we only have one actually good choice for regular orders (and it sure as shit ain't Zhanshi), we are down Doctor/Engineer profiles, we lost our only backline disruption piece (that incidentally made up for having otherwise piss poor AROs across the board), we lost some of our longer ranged (and thus order-efficient) anti-link tools, as well losing out on a fast/flexible specialist unit.

    Yu Jing can still do well, but the tools we have and the combinations that work well are smaller than ever. More than that, we are left covering our ARO weakness with pieces that are rather less order efficient which only pushes us harder in to some choices (like Kuang Shi) because the alternative is basically willfully handicapping ourselves.

    At this stage, even ISS alone feels like it has more list variety than vanilla Yu Jing (largely in part to so many ISS profiles only really working well within their own sectorial where they can spam enough Kuang Shi to otherwise drown some aspects of the order inefficiency caused by so many premium-priced LI units).

    So they are underpowered only really in the sense that they lack variety compared to most armies, and lack it even more compared to those that are sitting fat and happy on top of 3-4 sectorials worth of new unit infusions. Add in that CB are more and more using "cheats" in their own point system to create units that are remarkably ahead of the curve in terms of point-to-power ratio and you have a recipe for Yu Jing sort of losing their luster.

    Vanilla still works, but it is mostly just feeling like a pre-Human Sphere vanilla Yu Jing list (but subbing in Kuang Shi for Keisotsu) which... well some of us remember playing back in 2004. It was fun then, but the game has progressed beyond that point, so playing a list I likely played to death over a decade ago isn't a great feeling.

    At this stage our best list is also one that is largely finished. ISS is a fine sectorial with a lot of unit variety (perhaps even too much!) and interesting combinations (so long as you don't mind spamming Kuang Shi of course), but they're also kind of dead in the sense that (unless CB decide we need more mercenary units) they won't see any new editions (at least not until they start selling poorly and get the axe).

    Yu Jing still works, but it feels like they've regressed back to a state of play that predates the inclusion of sectorials and while I will admit that era of Infinity was probably the most fun I've had with it, when it feels like everyone is pulling out new and modern lists while I'm playing with a decade old standby, it severely curtails my interest in playing if only because I've played lists like that many times before.

    Yu Jing needs options again, they need something to make them unique again. I'm not sure if they're still the all-rounder faction I loved and started playing with now that Uprising has gutted them. I'm generally uncertain of whether IA will bring anything new or novel to the table or if it will be a flop. I know I can pull out Yu Jing and win still, but even when I do it still feels kind of boring and unfulfilling because there are only so many lists one can make with vanilla that are "good" these days. They just need more options, and those options need to bring something new to the table (both for their own sectorial, but also for vanilla). I don't know what you'd call that, underpowered probably works and is technically correct (the best kind!) but the problem feels very specific. It's like Yu Jing is suffering from being an under-supported new kid on the block (not unlike Tohaa were... are) and it feels bad because we were one of the original factions.
     
  5. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    @Durandal You captured exactly what I have been feeling when I go into ArmyBuilder. The elasticity in my lists seems rather small if I want to put something together that will be competitive and fills all of my desired roles, counters, and ranges. When I look to fill a role these days there is generally one maybe two "correct" options and this results in a chained downstream effect that further limits (due to specific point and load-out synergies) which troopers can fill-out the remaining rolls in a given list. In the end I am left with a number of troopers who feel sub-optimal or stale, but necessary.
     
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  6. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    I get that Vanilla Yu Jing is very different, and it lose some of its playbook with the loss of JSA. They still have powerful units and strategies to employ, but if you are conditioned to playing a faction a certain way, they are definitely going to appear weaker. I often say it was a mistake to remove JSA from Yu Jing without having IA right around the corner to fill the void.

    But when it comes to ISS, I don't see what has changed. They still do what they did before. Nothing was released that would dramatically change how you play the sectorial. I would still argue its one of the strongest sectorials in the game when in the hands of someone who knows how to field it.

    I still think Yu Jing is a force on the competitive scene. The lack of Yu Jing is because people want to play the new stuff, as there are many players in this game that like to try the new hotness being released. Just like when Red Veil was released, and I predict when IA arrives, Yu Jing will be a lot of what you will see at events.
     
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  7. SpectralOwl

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    In my opinion, as per the survey above, Yu Jing is full of great troops. It has tons of unique and terribly interesting units that have no problem clearing the board themselves and everything currently slated for White Banner is at the top of their class. Its only problem is that it doesn't feel very unified right now, and Ariadna has that problem too. The design space argument sounds silly given the six-month wait to fill said space, but I consider it telling that the removal of just one sectorial's worth of infantry managed to (temporarily) kill vanilla's schtick- Yu Jing cannot into melee anymore. IA is going to be critical for making the faction feel better, but certainly won't have to be full of power units to help YJ win, and honestly the Liu Xing already feels like a blast to play, so here's hoping that level of fun in the unit design makes it to the other unreleased units.
     
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  8. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    ISS is strong as it was.
    As for YJ:
    - dirt cheap troops to generate orders
    - hard hitters (Su Jian, Daofei, Hsien, Hac Tao)
    - good midfield (daofei, guilang, ninja, kan ren)
    - very good combat jump (tigers, but who really needs more than 1 good ad trooper)
    - mercs to fill the void like krakots and soon helot
    - good warbands with smoke to have fun with hsien/rui shi

    What are You missing? Ability to spam 20 orders with heavy hitters, combat jump, ninja, some midfield camo and warbands... YJ is still very strong:)
     
  9. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    Yu Jing can melee with the best of them... except for maybe JSA. To make up for that, Yu Jing shoot far better than JSA can, and Infinity is predominantly a shooting game.

    Not to mention that Yu Jing have strong leadership abilites. I could see them getting NCO in a profile or two when Third Offensive comes out.(if it hasn't already been announced)
     
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    Agree with your second point, disagree with your first. Yu Jing does have possibly the game's best Lieutenant in Sun Tze and possibly its worst Chain of Command in the Pheasant, but still more access to that skill then the Nomads or PanO do. While Yu Jing does pay for about 5% more CC then anyone else, it's still stupidly risky to actually get into base contact without smoke, Marker State or ablative link members. And when you are there, only the Monk, Ninja, Kanren and some Imperial Agents can reliably win, potentially wasting several orders of maneuvering. The effective range of a Combi Rifle is FOUR ORDERS to move through for all of these troops if they are doing something to gain a FTF roll like dodging, or shooting back.
     
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  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    It's not a matter of not having good profiles. It's more of a: what can Yujing provide that others can't? and how strong it's their game style.
    • hactao? good troop but there are similar troops on PANO, EC, or ALEPH
    • Hsien+smoke? similar to the previous one Aleph, EC, or even Nomads or pano (in SoF) have close alternatives
    • Skirmishers? (only expensive elite ones +25p)
    • AD troopers? (we're currently some steps behind on choices and of course expensive ones)
    • TAGs? Don't bother
    • What we really have is a lo of Vanilla straight HIs that provide no mods to opposed rolls and a high dose of brute raw force.
    So in simple words, Yujing has become "basic faction" with less presence or character compared to the others. This portrait is mainly caused due to the uprising split. Maybe we did't loose too much, but that much was an important part of what gave yujing it's uniqueness. So for a lot of players has become a dull faction, With a more straightforward aggressive strategy and more dependent on unreliable tactics or condemned to stick on the classics. Or at least I have the sensation that most of the players see it as that.

    I hope some of this picture currently portrayed by Yujing disappears with the arrival of Invincible... but I think it may not be so easy. some players have been accumulating resentment towards CB and the faction and they are not going to let it pass.
     
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  12. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Yes KS are amazing efficient, but they burn fast because they often have to double as your base defense.

    The hitters are good, but they have to pull their weight because, outside of a few exceptions, the non-remote mission pieces are either +25 or cant fight their way out of a paper bag.

    No efficient Tomcats, Zeroes, or Bandits here.

    Most of which are more expensive than their counterparts except Pan O. And outside of the Daofei and canny Kanren, all those die to the great equalizer, the humble AP mine.

    Ask Ariadna if they want to give up Paracommandos, RZV, or Mirage 5.

    Or CA if they don't like having the option of Fractaa, Rasyat, or Ko Dali.

    Or Haq between Hakim, Bashi, and Ragik.

    Those troops all occupy very different spots on the roster but are still AD.

    Also why do you ask this of the faction that lost Ko Dali? I think YJ as a whole would have liked to have kept access as a whole to Tactical Jump.

    Because everyone has access to them?
    Won't deny this, but so do Nomads. At least they actually have a choice and aren't stuck with so many dead profiles.

    Haq, CA, and Aleph also get in on that fun.
    How about not paying the goram CC tax on everything when we are no longer in the running for CC faction?

    Or some area control that doesn't sacrifice capability outside of the character Xi or the expensive pheasant. Want madtraps? Too bad, can't take them on your specialist or Haris troopers. Hell, we lost 2/3 of our mine laying minelayers.

    Which means either you flood the board with bodies or you dedicate +50 points and 2 SWC, in other words, your centerpiece slot, to ARO.

    Overall we are missing the glue to bind all these points greedy and disparate pieces into varied and viable forces.

    We need this because while we were left hanging, other factions were adding sectorals to their arsenal, getting truly transformative pieces like the 13 point Helot militia or the Heckler along the way.
     
  13. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Mainly: variety.

    A lot of our units are, ultimately, quite similar to their compatriots - there tends to be a lot of overlap in our roster. Well, either we have a lot of overlap, or we have one option (eg, Guijia being our only TAG; the Tiger being the only [currently released, as in on Army] AD and non-character MI troop).

    We do certainly have units that can get jobs done, and done pretty well, but we lack the real spice of life: variety. I wouldn't say Yu Jing is alone in this regard, but the issue has become much more stark since Uprising, which took away a lot of very different units to the ones that remain.
     
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  14. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    This is a complaint that shows up in pretty much every faction forum.

    The Hac Tao is cheaper and provides more value than the Swiss Guard, which is its closest counterpart. It has better loadouts as well.

    The Hsien+Smoke trick is one of the strongest variants of that trick. Plus, since the Hsien can be your Lt. thats another wave of pain you can send out.

    Ninja w/ KHD is one of the best counters to hacking, which is good for an army that is usually very hackable.

    Tiger Soldiers are decent, especially the spitfire loadout. The Liu Xing seems interesting with Explode LX.

    TAGs... for what its worth, the Guija is serviceable even if it is basic and is better than the O-Yoroi yu Jing lost. Not many people in my area field TAGs unless its Limited Insertion. Considering that weaknesses of other factions are usually worse, like Ariadna doesn't even have a TAG (important in Show of Force) or PanO has no smoke option, its something.

    As for the vanilla HI, you need to look at the loadouts. like the Yan Huo can take a loadout with dual MLs and Neurocinetics. That is a strong ARO piece.
     
  15. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    Indeed, here is to hoping that a level of "playable" fun and flavor makes it into those soon to be released AI units!

    My reaction to the IA profiles so far.
    [​IMG]

    What I really hope we will all be doing once the rest of IA arrives.
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    My Yu Jing Roulette lists still work pretty well.
    [​IMG] YJ Roulette
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39)
    [​IMG] YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
    [​IMG] DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59)
    [​IMG] GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
    [​IMG] GŬILÁNG MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    The Daofei, both Guilang, Ninja, and a laid mine are all deployed within 8" of each other.


    What's the point of a skirmisher that's super-cheap if it can't do the job?

    Guilang is a very good SK, with excellent tools to win firefights (camo and MSV1 is an unusual combo). And then there is the Daofei, which is unique in the game.

    Also, 25+pts is only expensive compared to Chasseurs, Foxtrots and Hunzakuts. It's about on par with everyone else.


    Tigers are arguably the best attacking AD troops in the game, still. Yes, we don't have AD2 specialists yet, but those are a relatively new addition to the game.


    The Guijia is a basic Main Battle TAG (88pts), like the Squalo (93pts), Lizard (87ps), or Raicho (89 pts). I admit, I do wish that the Guijia had kept it's HGL option. But it's 'average', not 'bad'.


    Yes, I do agree with that. Yu Jing lost an important part of it's multicultural identity with the Uprising.
     
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  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Yes, we are weakened.

    Because Pre-Uprising Yu Jing was god OP.

    Really, you didn't require any brain when you can easily chop up fools with Domaru lurking in your DZ, enemy speedbumped into Raiden or vainly trying to kill Big D.

    Yeah, Keisotsus. 9-pts filler? Along with heavy lifters and ADs? I'll call that broken.

    We can recall that as a good times, and I enjoyed picking the best picks against everyone, but we gotta let that go. Past is past, and I don't think Yu Jing's pretty weak - as long as we grab Hac Tao, we can't be a weak faction.
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Ha
    Hahaha
    Hahahahahahahahaha
    Hahaha
    Hahahahaha
    *looks at Kirpal Singh*
    Hahahahahaha
    Hahaha
    Ha
     
  19. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I can totally relate. There is a distinct lack of variety in the types of lists you might take and in certain fields only having one choice means even different lists can look quite samey despite all factions typically have staples - our staples tend to fill exactly the same role, or the same role plus more to compensate certain list builds.

    Some of it will be new shiny syndrome as well. Its been awhile since we've had new shinies, and the envy of other players new rules and possible strategies can be alluring when the general yu jing playbook has only gotten smaller.

    Yu jing is still a viable faction and will keep up with the big boys though. Invincible army is already showing to change up the variety.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Vanilla, yes, it's outclassed right now and really badly reliant on spamming disposable bodies. ISS on the other hand is as good as it's ever been, which is very good.


    That would be why Yu Jing absolutely dominated season 8 ITS and were the most played faction and won Interplanetario amongst other things.

    Oh wait, none of that happened. Please, get real.
     
    #20 Triumph, Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    DFW Ike, Pierzasty, fenren and 3 others like this.