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Father Knights, Assault and Close Combat

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Wolf, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I played a Father Knight Hacker in ITS Comms Centre, had mixed results and have a couple of questions.

    I'd never had an opportunity to use Assault before, and we couldn't quite believe I was getting a massive 10/10 (4/4) move AND Close Combat for just one Entire Order. It did successfully bring righteous fury upon a heathen Yu Jing trooper, but then I tried it again, and got tied up in Close Combat with a tougher unti for far too long/too many Orders which, in hindsight, probably cost me the game. So

    a) is Assault as fabulous as it seems; where's the catch?
    b) is the Father Knight Hacker with his terrific stats, particularly BTS, as good as it seems; or why not?
    and
    c) Close Combat's usual Burst 1 seems to means that CC targets really need to be much weaker units (doesn't seem very knightly to me!); would anyone like to provide some basic advice about CC and Burst that i might be missing!
    Finally, non-Father Knight bonus question:
    d) does Martial Arts L4 confer B2 in ARO? (Please reference the rules in your answer' thank you)
     
  2. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    a) The catch is that many times shooting is more order efficient. Even a combi has the possibility of causing more wounds on a order than melee from a father knight. Also, 23 CC is good, but it is not in the impressive range due to no Martial Arts.
    b) He is probably the best hacker in PanO, yes. However, if you are needing to use your BTS then things already went wrong.
    c) CC is very iffy since it is usually one dice rolled on each side. Roll a bit badly and you run the risk of getting wounded even if you are a much better melee fighter than the enemy. Good CC troops tend to have one or another - being good enough (20+ CC, Martial Arts) in CC and cheap enough that you don't loose much, or being absolute beasts in CC ( Achilles, Ajax, EXP weapon Jeanne, Onibawan...)
    d) Yes
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Martial_Arts

    REQUIREMENTS
    • Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill.
     
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  3. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The good part of assault is to cover the all the distance of your two Movement orders and still have a FtF to mitigate the impact of the ORA (and maybe cut your target in half). CC is a "sometimes" ability. CC is good when you have Berserk and/or MA3 or higher levels to kill troopers that aren't CC specialists (HIs like Aquila, Swiss Guard, TAGs (except O-Yoroi and maybe Seraph)) that are much harder to kill just by shooting them down. It is mandatory to have good CC guys in some scenarios too. CC is good to blind and glue a powerful ennemy shooter but a bad CC fighter. Get in mind, though, that if your opponent is fielding a sensor, well, I hope the sacrifice of your guy was worthing it.

    The Hexa with a surprise electric pulse can be very effective against non-CC oriented powerful troopers.

    Never made so much CC before but now I'm fielding knights, well, it is an enjoyable possibility (KotHS and Joan are nice there).
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You get -3 to your CC and give opponent to shoot you while out of cover which sucks ? It's gamble as you will go 1 dice versus 1 dice
    Well BTS9 hacker was good in pre-KHD era. Now all KHD programs are at least DAM16 and bypass your firewall (if you happen to have one) so BTS9 is not that stellar as it used to be. Plus AHD have shitty defence against KHD.
    Well MO is actually not that great at CC (he he even Ariadna has units with same CC level as 90% of MO knights ^^). And FK is actually semi good versus scrubs as he gets +3 to every dice roll (result of CC23). That's saying (on the other hand CC uses to be a bit more lethal as any CC capable guy usually has CC20 thus preventing the result "noone hit anyone").
    Yes it does, having other friendly guy in B2B with enemy also increase your burst by 1 (for every friendly in b2b with victim).
    Go read here: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Martial_Arts
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You know that Electronic Pulse prevents you from using surprise attack mod on victim ?
     
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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Electric Pulse prevents MODs to CC and PH, so the -6 for Surprise Attack only works if the target is shooting back at you. Still has it's uses, but a TAG or run of the mill HI is pretty likely to beat your EP. Worth a shot in an emergency. With a Hexa it works pretty good as bait: move into BtB - if your opponent declares CCs you shoot, if your opponent declares shoot you use EP.
     
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  7. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    But what I'm thinking about the Father Knight is that he's got great BS, good CC and solid Hacking, so it perhaps offers the opportunity to tailor my second Short Skill to best manage my opponent's ARO. ie. if they Hack, I could choose CC; or whatever combination gives me advantageous Face To Face or Unopposed rolls, right?

    I think this (estimate for) Short Skill - (estimate for) ARO - (estimate for) Short Skill mechanism is one of Infinity's most appealing mechanisms, because it provides such a lot of depth in the meta-game between the players, and maybe this unit's multiple strengths gives us plenty of versatility there.
     
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  8. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Yes, thanks. We were happy with L4 providing B2 in the Active Turn, but we couldn't find anything that said it was also applied in Reactive.

    No doubt the blithe answer to that is "Well, that's what it says" but it's not unreasonable to be looking for more qualification when ARO for Shoot is usually only 1, and then only explicitly modified by Fireteam bonuses etc. We were naturally looking for some explicit wording that says "And you get this extra Burst for L4 in your reactive turn" - especially since there is that additional text qualifying Burst for L5. Or is there something else I missed?

    As a side note, I guess this is a thing we're realizing about Spanish: that it seems much less prohibitive than English. So where our Spanish friends simply don't feel the need to specify things more prohibitively, we natural English speakers (speaking for myself, anyway) seem to be generally looking for more explicit wording the whole time. :anguished:
     
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Which is sound plan unless you are forced to go into (for example) repeater range and fight some other dude at the same time...

    Plus your "good" BS14 comes with mere combi, so in case of enemy hacker you are still shooting on BS14 (+3 range, -3 from KHD redrum), and he is hacking on "at least" WIP13-14.

    If you go CC you forfeit your B3 and then switch it for one die on CC20, which again is not good thing when you are on active turn and enemy can kill you in 1 ARO (assuming KHD and guy correctly use redrum program).
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    a & c. Yes, Assault can be very useful because it makes getting to combat more Order-efficient, and (to be blunt) a lot of players misjudge the effectiveness of high Attributes with fewer dice. But picking on weaker troopers is pretty much a given in Infinity, if you're on even odds then something has already gone wrong!

    As an example, a Father-Knight shooting his Combi Rifle at a basic trooper is on lower odds of killing the enemy trooper than he is by using Assault and charging, although it does increase the chance of the FK of taking damage into double figures.

    (FK does damage/no effect/Alguacil does damage):

    FK in cover shooting Combi at Alguacil in cover: 58/36/7% link
    FK using Assault against shooting Alguacil: 64/23/13% link

    If the FK is within 4" so doesn't need to use Assault then CC is noticeably better than shooting:
    FK using CC against an Alguacil that shoots: 74/18/9% link


    As far as Killer Hackers go, Assault typically gives better odds than shooting:
    FK in cover using Combi against Barid KHD (Redrum) in cover: 40/39/22% link
    FK using Assault against Barid KHD (Redrum): 51/27/22% link

    Note to @toadchild - I had to manually add the -3 MOD for Redrum!


    Except that it gets worse, because most Killer Hackers have some form of MODs against shooting, in which case CC (even with the -3 MOD for Assault) is much better than shooting.

    FK in cover using Combi against Zero KHD (Redrum) in cover: 34/41/36% link
    FK using Assault against Zero KHD (Redrum): 56/24/19% link
     
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Which again shows that as AHD FK your really DONT WANT to be in any way of proximity of KHD (as they had good chance of putting you down in ARO).

    And again, all those calculation are under condition that you already had at least once did some shooting versus your target as Assault requires LoF (again quite bad if you are trying to get into something like SF Myrmidon/Moira).

    And again, if you want to assault KHD you almost for sure:
    a) triggered at once his ARO (Assault range = hacker ZoC)
    b) or he had LoF to you and you exchanged some shots/hacks (again bad news for AHD FK)

    Oh and I forgot: if you are FK you really don't want to get into CC with Myrmidon....

    ... so bad news all day...
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Compared to what? If there's LoF, a Camo or Mimetic trooper with a Shotgun is as much of a threat as a Killer Hacker.

    I never claimed otherwise, but we've been through that one before as well.

    a. Carbonite or Basilisk gives the Father-Knight better odds to IMM the Killer Hacker than shooting does to wound them, even with no Camo involved.
    b. Why is it bad news? You're advancing with the trooper anyway.
     
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  13. Mikes

    Mikes Well-Known Member

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    Assault has its uses, but I see it as an optional extra to what's a bloody durable HI specialist. If you need him to chop things up things have either gone very right or very wrong.
     
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  14. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    Assault is a circumstantial skill, but it's useful against TO/DDO troops like Swiss guard, Noctifers, Murabids... In PanO CC is always the last resort.
     
  15. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    With very few exceptions CC is a last resort.

    It is both very order intensive to get to and very swingy.

    Someone will say that Achilles is better at CC than shooting! Well, yes. He IS one of those exceptions, IF it costs the same number of orders to get to CC than to shoot the target.
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I've used CC in very concrete circumstances with exceedingly good results. But again, it's a narrow path, easy to go wrong.

    Example 1: my enemy runs a Sphinx against my Myrmidonx2 and Asura "haris" (I was moving them in compact, and I was facing Shasvastii, so discover (and if it doesn't ARO, move, because it will be a mine 9/10 times) was important), and gets too close (an elevation).. I declared Engage as ARO with the Myrms, Dodge with the Asura... and there it was, a 100+ TAG tied up because a 16 points dude with AP weapon was touching the base while an Assault Hacker in TO was at 20cm... While the Sphinx took no damage, it was out of the game (for my opponent) until he could neutralize my hacker (which he didn't).

    Example 2: IL, enemy TAG on one side, Bagh-Mari (with a linked Stephen Rao, and a Specops at hand, a Montesa on the middle) on the other. Myrmidon smokes, Coordinated order takes out my troops (Asura spitifire, posthuman mk1+mk4, 2 chain rifle myrm, some Dakinis, specops, Achilles...) while Achilles does a beeline against the TAG (hidden... my enemy was plotting to Rambo in his first turn). Achilles reached the TAG in 3-4 orders, and killed it in one and an ARO , the rest of the troops moved away and took the Montesa and the enemy Fireteam by clipping.

    While I agree CC is very expensive, it pays off to have a troop able to not do "close combat" but "Crowd Control" at hand, and while I'm aware that not all factions have access to cheap martial artists, cheap warbands can do wonders to salvage a situation, or to exploit another. And yeah, it's another notch in the "useful to bring" counter, we have too many of those on all factions XD
     
  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Anyone who moves his TAG into 2 range reach of Myrmidon (who is better at CC than any non-character MO option) should be punished like that.
    One of the best CC units with strong BS option enhanced by ODD, does nothing to show CC examples (not to mention smoke grenades on myrmidons).
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I suggest once more looking at MO CC capabilities.....
     
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I use Achilles V2, since he is less vulnerable to Fire, fire, and Visors (or suffers a little less XD). And seldom with the Spitfire.

    You don't have to win, just to "tie down" an appropiate target! A Magister Knight is more than able of engaging and threaten an enemy TAG, for example, and a Teutonic Knight can really punch above his weight with that EXP weapon at 36 points.
    Also, HI with Matial Arts have to pay extra, because of Stealth negating hacking ARO unless the hacker sees you (meaning you see him... thus leveraging the increased CD of PanO). Granted, I'd only think of using a Teutonic against Achilles or enemy TAGs (mutual destruction gives pause to the enemy... not to mention Achilles costs twice as much as a Teutonic), and the Magisters dodge at 17.

    On that same vein, a Morlock (E/M CCW... if it's the enemy Lt, LoL ensured!) or a Jaguar are quite useful to tie down enemy troops, and if you are desperate enough, a 3 points servitor can really ruin a TAG's day!
     
  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I really suggest checking Teuton stats, his DAM14 EXP weapon is far away from MAD tactic (if we talk about TAG being a target if Teutons Berserk attack).
    Again how much those warbands costs when compared to Magister, and how much do they provide to a list/force even without their CC capabalities (not to mention smoke/eclipse as a way to leverage activly CC threat).