Okay, so we had some Fat2 chat in the other thread (dedicated to Full Auto L2, but you can't have one without another, right?). I have decided to create this thread to divert some of the off-topic discussion from there, and to broaden Fat2-related topic to Khwarijis in general. Here's the initial thread since I don't think I need to make a long-winded introduction into the issue, but you might want to pick up some context. *Runs up and kicks a pig, sending it into the air* I've never ran numbers before and whoa, that "fire at Nisse across the table with Tarik" example is downright hilarious. Aaand hypothetical linked Spitfire Khawarij will have a 41% chance to *crit* at least once (not counting other successful outcomes), drops to 37% if we count out a scenario of getting critted in return by B1 ARO. I wish CB would instead promote using Tarik and his battlebros for their ability to deliver their weapons, grenades and the like through rough terrain as opposed to just being dumb at winning F2F regardless of circumstances and plays. I get that one of the issues is their survivability, and crits kinda address that. But maybe Tarik and co would be more interesting if Fat2 was to be removed entirely and replaced (for everyone, not just Spitfire users) with a rule allowing to take Partial Cover while jumping and super-jumping, as long as other prerequisites are met? Of course, there are other ways to optimize the unit around that (maybe trade some of CC skill, as much as I like it for fluffy reasons, for 6-2 MOV? How much would it cost?), but optimizing isn't hard and Infinity units aren't about that, which is IMO a good thing. What do you think?
First idea that comes to my mind when trying to fix Fat2 would be to keep the improved crit chance only to favourable conditions. My take on it: after all modifiers, if your BS is >= base BS you crit also on 1s or something like that. I find it convoluted, but would encourage player to pick his fights carefully. Still I would prefer to just get rid of this mechanic for good.
It it even better check those number (shameless self quoting from old thread) Well fatality Lv2 is crazy good as it alone increases chances to would Squalo by 15%. You cannot go to high probability even if your base BS is 20. No, not at all. Khawarji Spitfire vs Squalo: 47.81% vs 17.28% BS13 Fatality Lv2 Khawarji Spitfire vs Squalo: 32.08% vs 22.07% BS13 Khawarji Spiftire vs Squalo: 45.12% vs 6.4% BS20 Soo... cost of 1 pts and 0.5 SWC for 15% increase in hitting power against heaviest opponents ? Against "ordinary" targets is till potent but crit mechanic is obviously not as much rewarding as against big ones: Khawarji Spitfire vs Ghulam Link HMG: 54,82% vs 17.10% Fatality Lv2 BS13 Khawarji Spitfire vs Ghulam Link HMG: 43.69% vs 21,77% BS13 Khawarji Spitfire vs Ghulam Link HMG: 52.85% vs 16.07% BS15 (had Khawarji BS20 it would had ~70% chance to wound linked Ghulam HMG) (Ghulam is in +3 range) Even against light targets Fatality Lv2 gives you nice 10% bump more or less equivalent to +2 BS while being tremendously cheaper (isn't transistion of BS13->BS15 something like almost 10 pts ? something around 7-10 ?)
Every time I've ran Tarik or the Kawarij Spitfire it seemed as if the 1 and 13 faces on my dice had disappeared. I have had more crits with a any random troop than I've had shooting with a Fatality 2 troop. So it hasn't had much effect in my games so far.
Would you opt for three more threads, with one slightly different voting block attached to each? Because this is how you start it
Oh indeed. Let's not forget the posts from those opposed to even any discussion of changing the Critical rule since it is perfect in every way and could never be improved upon ever. I remember having real fun with this topic when it comes up every 3 months or so.
I stand by the statement in the previous thread, Fatality lvl2 isn't an issue by itself, it's an issue when you give it to things that are better than burst 1-2.
One thing to consider is that the Khawarji are not done being tweaked since their final profile. Here is the thing with any new rule, it's big and it's scary because it is something completely new that people have to contend with. Then when people play with it more and they start to become familiar with it, the counters take form and it ceases to be a big deal. Guess what, same thing happened when the Tohaa were released and they have ceased to be a big deal. My problem with anyone ever saying that is it assumes that the rule was thrown out there haphazardly with no play testing. This is an insult to the company developing the rules, some of them warranted depending on the company you are talking about. This isn't the case with Corvus Belli, we know they play test. We know they take their time with releases only doing it when the time is right. Fatality and Full Auto have been play tested, so time to find strategies around them. Fatality level 1 is a static bonus, something to depend on. Fatality Level 2 is a percentage boost...something that is nice when it happens, but nothing to depend on. I find that most people's problems with crits is negative confirmation bias reinforcement.
Fatality Lvl 2 is a powerful skill, no doubt about it. But it also comes on a fragile, expensive chassis. It makes the Spitfire Khawarij nasty at F2F, so kill it the same way you kill any other nasty F2F gunfighter.
As long as it is a dirt cheap skill, I would make Fatality L2 work by trading your weapon's BS+3 bonus for crit 1's. That would make it a lovely cheap skill to throw on any unloved Sniper or Combi profile.
Yeah I don't think that's a fair assessment at all dude. Stuff like Tarik having almost 40% odds on killing a Nisse in cover while shooting in a -3 range band is pretty messed up. You shoot at a dug in Nisse at BS 4 you should not be wielding those sorts of odds. Fatality if it stays as is should be limited to burst 1-2 stuff.
An Intruder HMG in -3 range is only 2% behind Tarik, and beats him if using Surprise Shot. A Djanbazan HMG in -3 range is only 5% behind Tarik. 40% odds of killing while in bad range isn't that rare.
And how does cost of Fatality Lv2 compare to +2BS which it seems in most cases can be compared to ? (on top of being superior when shooting at heavy armored targets)
An Intruder can suffer a -12, meaning he has to roll 1 and crit, or fail... And has only 5% of crit per dice, while Tarik has 10% per dice. Also, as written, Fatality L2 means a troop who would automatically fail (for example a BS12 troop with a -12, yes I know all troops with Fatality currently have BS13) because of a -12 can still roll, since 1 is always a crit. I think only two troops can reach 10% crit (in their best situation), which are Kusanagi and Cadmus Sheskin, both in a 5man Fireteam at best range and without any negative modifier. Well, the problem there is that 40% is not the right calculation (I suppose he went for "4 dices roll 1 or the other number, then crit" or something like that). I just check the dice roller (I imagine it automatically adds Fatality N2 effects): Tarik (spitfire) at -3, the Nisse (sniper) at +3, both in cover, Tarik's active turn Tarik inflicts 1 wound to nisse: 37.85% Tarik inflicts 2 or more wounds to nisse: 7.12% Both fail: 33.59% Nisse inflicts 1 wound to Tarik: 28.55% Nisse inflicts 2 wounds to Tarik: 8.81% This means Tarik wins 45% of the times with a -9 (range, cover, mimetism), and is wounded only about 37% of the times. HOWEVER, if we were to add a 3 man Fireteam to Tarik... he goes to 55% of removing the Nisse, and about 33% of suffering one or two wounds. And if we go to a Fireteam Core of Tarik with 4 Khawarijs... Tarik goes to 71% of removing the Nisse, with only a 26% chance of suffering damage. Sure, we are talking about a 5-man core of 166 points and 1.5 SWC (assuming 1 medic plus and 3 27-point fillers) against a Nisse (34 points and 1.5 SWC), but after the Nisse it goes another target, then another, then another. As long as Tarik can pick enemies one at a time, he's good.
You're misreading the calculator. It's 37.85% chance of one or more wounds, which is where the 40% comes from. Full Fireteam MODs takes him up to 53.59% of causing 1+ wounds. A Ghulam HMG with full Fireteam MODs at the same range is on 56.95% to wound for far fewer points.
Ok, I should have check the % added to 100 instead of more. Of course, HMG has better range than the Spitfire, the Ghulam changes a -3 for range and gets a +3, that's six points (30%) per dice. And distance has a huge dependency on the table, but if Tarik forfeits cover we can assume he can get to the +3 range of the spitfire.
The issue is that FAT2 is some point and click shit that requires zero strategy and always works with no way to mitigate it. This is the same issue with FA2. They just work and turn situations that might be strategic considerations and turns them into "ok I shoot" cause the odds are so much better. Tarik's role before was to bully weaker shooting units and he has equipment and skills to work in almost every situation except against powerful shooters. Now he's a threat to everyone entirely due to FAT2. I don't mind FAT2 that much but Tarik is the worst platform for it and it's paid for by (what I assume is) a huge discount to Poison. Personally I don't like it because I'm a PanO player which everyone constantly harps about being The Shooting Faction and now there's these incredibly powerful shooting skills which belong to other factions. Meanwhile the Kamau "redesign" is trash and Army is still listing the incorrect profiles. edit: do not @ me
The Ghulam Fireteam in -3 range is on 43.67% to wound, so still better than Tarik on his own. My point is that a near-40% chance to take down a Nisse Sniper while not in the optimum range isn't particularly unusual even within the same rough points bracket.
